Having said that, i think Corley isn't far behind Pundit in the number of forums he's been banned from.

Quote from: David R;497620Jgants was missinformed that all Forge games are of the sick/torture porn variety. JD merely enlightened him.

Bullshit. Gants was making the TRUE argument that there is a huge propensity in forge games toward misery tourism and intentional "edgy" degenerate themes. JD's response was to point out a game so obscure that it might well just be invented, and claim that its a more accurate representative of the forefront of Storygame thought than Poison'd or Grey Ranks.

QuoteFrom claiming that JD defends GNS (and by this you meant he wants to control language) you shift the goalpost to defends Forge Games. Of course he never ever denied he plays certain Forge games but thinks the theory is crap. And then you claim he's arguing in bad faith because "he must know"....Jesus, you really are psychic.

Of course, there is the slightest possibility that he might not know, in which case the level of his ignorance is just so astoundingly high that he should have no business posting on the subject. It'd be like if went onto a forum about the Asian Stock Market and started making bold statements about things being a certain way without knowing the slightest fucking thing about the Asian Stock Market.  It doesn't take a psychic to say that given what other things JDCorley does know, the fact that he wouldn't know these things (rather than just being intentionally deceptive) for which I'm calling him out is pretty fucking miniscule.  That just takes common sense to deduce, something that the Forge Swine always seem to start lacking the second they want to weasel out of being rightly caught in a LIE ("how could you know that I didn't know the Sun wasn't blue? Are you psychic or something? For all you know I might have lived in an underground bunker all my life! You're oppressing me for not accepting any bullshit I say at face value!!").

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;497629Bullshit. Gants was making the TRUE argument that there is a huge propensity in forge games toward misery tourism and intentional "edgy" degenerate themes. JD's response was to point out a game so obscure that it might well just be invented, and claim that its a more accurate representative of the forefront of Storygame thought than Poison'd or Grey Ranks.

Nope. The TRUE argument is that the only games that get any attention here are those that cause the most controversy. JD was aboslutely right to point out the numerous other popular games amongst the Forge crowd that doesn't involve trangressive play.

Edit: And when he mentioned Happy Birthday Robot! he didn't claim (as you say) that it was a more accurate representation of the games the Forge crowds puts outs only that misery tourism or whatever you call them are not the only games that come out of the Forge. Something that Jgants accepts. Whose arguing in bad faith, now ?

QuoteOf course, there is the slightest possibility that he might not know, in which case the level of his ignorance is just so astoundingly high that he should have no business posting on the subject. It'd be like if went onto a forum about the Asian Stock Market and started making bold statements about things being a certain way without knowing the slightest fucking thing about the Asian Stock Market.  It doesn't take a psychic to say that given what other things JDCorley does know, the fact that he wouldn't know these things (rather than just being intentionally deceptive) for which I'm calling him out is pretty fucking miniscule.  That just takes common sense to deduce, something that the Forge Swine always seem to start lacking the second they want to weasel out of being rightly caught in a LIE ("how could you know that I didn't know the Sun wasn't blue? Are you psychic or something? For all you know I might have lived in an underground bunker all my life! You're oppressing me for not accepting any bullshit I say at face value!!").

Don't get upset because he doesn't subscribe to your narrative about the Forge and Uncle Ron. The fact is that JD has been pretty upfront of his disdain for GNS and most kinds of Forge theory. He's been upfront about the Forge games he does like. You go on about how the Forge Swine lie and accuse anyone who doesn't agree with of being Swine or a Pundit hater (go ahead, look it up, you probably would be surpried how many of us here , you have accused of being Swine of some sort) and yet JD has anwsered all your question, just not in the way you want. So then it becomes that he is lying or the goalpost shiftng (first he's defending GNS and then he's defending Forge games). If you really think he is a disruption to this site - sniping and arguing in bad faith - ban him.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPundit;497629Bullshit. Gants was making the TRUE argument that there is a huge propensity in forge games toward misery tourism and intentional "edgy" degenerate themes. JD's response was to point out a game so obscure that it might well just be invented, and claim that its a more accurate representative of the forefront of Storygame thought than Poison'd or Grey Ranks.

Number of threads about Happy Birthday, Robot! on story-games.com in 2010-2011 (determined by subject line): 17
Number of threads about Grey Ranks on story-games.com in 2010-2011: 3
Number of threads about Poison'd on story-games.com in 2010-2011: 2

I'll even pick out some more widely-thought-to-be story games to test against your theory that Grey Ranks and Poison'd are the forefront of story-game thought. Again, I'm looking at the last two years.

Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple (flying kung fu monks answer letters and get into trouble): 8
Fiasco (Coen Brothers style nonsense): 127
Dresden Files (magic detectives and swordfighting in alleys): 23
Mouse Guard (mouseys with cute widdle swords!!!): 14
Burning Wheel or Empires (fantasy kickpunching/science fiction laserbeaming mind controlling alienz): 23
Penny For My Thoughts (non-RPG mutual storytelling engine): 10
Bliss Stage (teenage relationships, plus giant anime fights? I'm not 100% clear on this one): 12
The Shadow of Yesterday (fantasy/sword and sorcery): 2
In A Wicked Age (sword and sorcery): 15
Dogs in the Vineyard (western religious fantasy, cleanin' up the town!): 15

And now some games that I consider possible story games, under my far-superior-to-the-normal definition (games which can be played aiming at story).    Same time frame.  Let's see how much story-games.com thinks about games people don't normally consider story games, but which I do:

Dungeons & Dragons (searched for "D&D"): 65
("Pathfinder" only gets 3 hits, but some of those D&D threads were about D&D3.*, so make of that what you will. Still as much as Grey Ranks and more than Poison'd!)
Vampire (any edition): 4
Mage (any edition): 2
Changeling (any edition): 1
Shadowrun: 4

Yes, story-games.com talks and thinks about D&D around 20 times as much as Grey Ranks, and even Vampire gets about the same about of chit-chat as Poison'd does.

And now some games that are not (as far as I know) story games, just to compare to those 3 threads about Grey Ranks and 2 about Poison'd:

Werewolf/Mafia/Are You The Traitor?: 2
Chess: 1

That was an interesting set of searches, let me know if you want me to do some more!  But I think it's pretty clear that Poison'd/Grey Ranks are not really that significant in story-games.com thinking over the last two years.

QuoteOf course, there is the slightest possibility that he might not know, in which case the level of his ignorance is just so astoundingly high that he should have no business posting on the subject. It'd be like if went onto a forum about the Asian Stock Market and started making bold statements about things being a certain way without knowing the slightest fucking thing about the Asian Stock Market.  It doesn't take a psychic to say that given what other things JDCorley does know, the fact that he wouldn't know these things (rather than just being intentionally deceptive) for which I'm calling him out is pretty fucking miniscule.  That just takes common sense to deduce, something that the Forge Swine always seem to start lacking the second they want to weasel out of being rightly caught in a LIE ("how could you know that I didn't know the Sun wasn't blue? Are you psychic or something? For all you know I might have lived in an underground bunker all my life! You're oppressing me for not accepting any bullshit I say at face value!!").

Wow, just amazing.

Look, I said the word "plot", in a compliment, and the place went completely apeshit.  And I thought that was hilarious and poked fun at people about it.

I don't claim "Forgites are victims of language control", and I don't think that. In fact there was a concerted effort by Forge posters to create a shitload of jargon that doesn't make any sense.  Absolutely everyone who knows anything knows that.  That's what makes it funny that people here now desperately want to do the same thing.

And on this thread, people unironically advocate language control of their own, including you.  Nobody must use the word "plot", even in perfectly normal and natural ways to describe things that absolutely every single other person in the world would call a plot and which have been called a "plot" in RPGs since the early 1980s.  We must scour the word from our vocabulary or risk.....infection.  I poked a little fun, and you decided, nope, that's unironically true, in every possible way, what's so funny about that?  

So I wanted more.  I still do! I'm still waiting for the forbidden word list! Let's hear it!

That said, I took that conversation elsewhere, David, precisely because I didn't want the shit to hit the fan here.

David> Pundit's pissed because Corley is tearing him a new asshole.

Yes you did, Ben. And I know you don't really have anything against JD...well except for normal gamers stuff. I just detest the way how the Pundit threatens bannation against certain gamers. What does he want this place to turn into, an echo chamber ?

Regards,
David R

That's right. I wish JD would just quit it when there's obviously no way we're going to agree on a certain point, and his rhetoric pisses me off sometimes (no, JD, that's not a good thing), but I'm sure he's a cool dude and we could get some great gaming off the ground together.

Getting me to quit it and leave a thread or the site, as you well know, is simple, just tell me to leave. I always do.

Quote from: David R;497641Nope. The TRUE argument is that the only games that get any attention here are those that cause the most controversy. JD was aboslutely right to point out the numerous other popular games amongst the Forge crowd that doesn't involve trangressive play.

Edit: And when he mentioned Happy Birthday Robot! he didn't claim (as you say) that it was a more accurate representation of the games the Forge crowds puts outs only that misery tourism or whatever you call them are not the only games that come out of the Forge. Something that Jgants accepts. Whose arguing in bad faith, now ?

He claimed that it was enormously successful, when in fact its not. By Forge terms, its games like Poison'd, Grey Ranks, the Shab Al-hiri roach, My Life with Master, etc. that are enormously successful. They are the ones that are talked about. That's what its all about.

QuoteDon't get upset because he doesn't subscribe to your narrative about the Forge and Uncle Ron. The fact is that JD has been pretty upfront of his disdain for GNS and most kinds of Forge theory. He's been upfront about the Forge games he does like. You go on about how the Forge Swine lie and accuse anyone who doesn't agree with of being Swine or a Pundit hater (go ahead, look it up, you probably would be surpried how many of us here , you have accused of being Swine of some sort) and yet JD has anwsered all your question, just not in the way you want. So then it becomes that he is lying or the goalpost shiftng (first he's defending GNS and then he's defending Forge games). If you really think he is a disruption to this site - sniping and arguing in bad faith - ban him.

Regards,
David R

He's answered my questions with snide sarcastic comments, non sequiters, counterattacks, and a general willful obstinacy when it comes to saying things even he can't possibly believe.  Its not about "accepting my narrative", its not "my narrative" that Ron Edwards hates White Wolf's games and has written about how they failed to actually "tell story". That's not me, that's FACT. He fucking WROTE ABOUT IT; and there's no reasonable way that corley couldn't have known that.  And remember, that was the part he was initially trying to dispute.

Believe me, I won't hesitate to ban someone who is consistently disruptive.   Its not a step I take lightly.  If I were just going around banning someone for not liking them, he'd be gone by now.  But that's not the standard I use, contrary to what the pundit-haters try to pretend (idiotically, because if that were the case none of them would be here).

RPGPundit

Quote from: JDCorley;497650Number of threads about Happy Birthday, Robot! on story-games.com in 2010-2011 (determined by subject line): 17
Number of threads about Grey Ranks on story-games.com in 2010-2011: 3
Number of threads about Poison'd on story-games.com in 2010-2011: 2

I'll even pick out some more widely-thought-to-be story games to test against your theory that Grey Ranks and Poison'd are the forefront of story-game thought. Again, I'm looking at the last two years.

Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple (flying kung fu monks answer letters and get into trouble): 8
Fiasco (Coen Brothers style nonsense): 127
Dresden Files (magic detectives and swordfighting in alleys): 23
Mouse Guard (mouseys with cute widdle swords!!!): 14
Burning Wheel or Empires (fantasy kickpunching/science fiction laserbeaming mind controlling alienz): 23
Penny For My Thoughts (non-RPG mutual storytelling engine): 10
Bliss Stage (teenage relationships, plus giant anime fights? I'm not 100% clear on this one): 12
The Shadow of Yesterday (fantasy/sword and sorcery): 2
In A Wicked Age (sword and sorcery): 15
Dogs in the Vineyard (western religious fantasy, cleanin' up the town!): 15

And now some games that I consider possible story games, under my far-superior-to-the-normal definition (games which can be played aiming at story).    Same time frame.  Let's see how much story-games.com thinks about games people don't normally consider story games, but which I do:

Dungeons & Dragons (searched for "D&D"): 65
("Pathfinder" only gets 3 hits, but some of those D&D threads were about D&D3.*, so make of that what you will. Still as much as Grey Ranks and more than Poison'd!)
Vampire (any edition): 4
Mage (any edition): 2
Changeling (any edition): 1
Shadowrun: 4

Yes, story-games.com talks and thinks about D&D around 20 times as much as Grey Ranks, and even Vampire gets about the same about of chit-chat as Poison'd does.

And now some games that are not (as far as I know) story games, just to compare to those 3 threads about Grey Ranks and 2 about Poison'd:

Werewolf/Mafia/Are You The Traitor?: 2
Chess: 1

That was an interesting set of searches, let me know if you want me to do some more!  But I think it's pretty clear that Poison'd/Grey Ranks are not really that significant in story-games.com thinking over the last two years.

Your numbers are bullshit.  The Storygames site (its public element, anyways) was largely designed to act as a publicity/recruiting front, giving a "nicer" image to the general public of what those games are like than what the Forge provided.  Were those numbers from their public side, or from the secret forums only members can access? How could we know?
And do an internet-wide search, and I guarantee you that you'll find shitloads more about MLWM, DiTV, Grey Ranks, Poison'd and all the other misery-tourism "edgy" piece of shit storygames than your flavour-of-the-month robot game.

In fact:
"Poison'd" yields 431,000 results.
"happy birthday robot", a term far more likely to be in reference to something other than the storygame, btw, yields 289000 results.  Its pretty evident after the first couple of pages that most of the entries aren't about the game.

QuoteLook, I said the word "plot", in a compliment, and the place went completely apeshit.  And I thought that was hilarious and poked fun at people about it.

I don't claim "Forgites are victims of language control", and I don't think that. In fact there was a concerted effort by Forge posters to create a shitload of jargon that doesn't make any sense.  Absolutely everyone who knows anything knows that.  That's what makes it funny that people here now desperately want to do the same thing.

I'm glad you're finally admitting that the Forgers create jargon, and hopefully you'll admit that they USE that jargon as a WEAPON by which to subvert forums, by introducing the jargon you force the Forge's definition of the words they use, based on assumptions about RPGs that are NOT TRUE, into the discussion, obliging people to work already from the Forge's assumptions, creating a rigged game in any kind of debate.

IF you admit that, then you'd have to admit that what I've done, which has been so successful in keeping this forum from being subverted, unlike so many others, is not "the same thing" it is merely a preventative measure, saying they're not allowed to inflict that jargon on us.  No normal words are forbidden, no normal definitions of words are forbidden.  What's forbidden is for people to come along and talk about "narrativism" as if it was something that really existed or to talk about "story now" as though that was the goal of roleplaying games, or to pretend that storygames and rpgs are the same thing.

QuoteAnd on this thread, people unironically advocate language control of their own, including you.  Nobody must use the word "plot", even in perfectly normal and natural ways to describe things that absolutely every single other person in the world would call a plot and which have been called a "plot" in RPGs since the early 1980s.

Absolute bullshit. I use Plot all the time. RPG adventures generally have a plot.  I don't even know where the fuck you get the notion from that I'm against the use of the word plot.
What I'm against is assholes pretending that "creating a story" is the goal of an RPG, when in fact it in no way is.

 

QuoteWe must scour the word from our vocabulary or risk.....infection.  I poked a little fun, and you decided, nope, that's unironically true, in every possible way, what's so funny about that?  

So I wanted more.  I still do! I'm still waiting for the forbidden word list! Let's hear it!

The forbidden word list does not include "plot". It does include using words like "simulationism", "gamism", "narrativism", as though these were things that were actual workable categories for RPGs.  It includes also using the word "immersion" as though it were a dirty thing to be avoided at all cost, rather than a central goal of RPG play.

There's probably a few others, none of which are actually forbidden words, just words that people won't get away with using in specific weasely ways to try to subvert the discussion on this forum.  You can use any of the words above if you were to discuss something about the Forge; what you can't do is start using it freely in a discussion about a real RPG as if it was a given, an understood and accepted definition based on solid assumptions by which we can then guide the discussion.  That's what you can't do and hope to get away with here, which is why this place is so dangerous to the storygame Swine.

RPGPundit

I'm confused by why you think a general internet search is better for telling what story gamers think is at the forefront of story game thinking than a search at a specialized forum limited to the last 2 years. Like, your idea includes people who dislike the games, or who don't understand it, or who are selling it,  or whatever. Mine only includes people who are interested in thinking and talking about story games.

As for the story-games forums searched, yes, the search did include the members-only forum.

If you agree with me (and disagree with Benoist) that "plot" is a perfectly normal word people can fruitfully use when talking about RPGs, then what else is there to say? I didn't say (and don't believe in) simulationism (either in the GNS or GDS sense), so why you bring it up as if it's an accusation that should sting me is beyond comprehension.

I took your comments to mean a general objection to the idea that we should oppose storygamer Swines' use of jargon to control discussion overall; not a specific complaint against the use of the word "plot".

In fact, the specific differences between "plot" and "story" are quite important; it makes perfect sense that  GM in a regular RPG should try to have a "plot" for his session, but should most certainly not be trying to "create a story" either in the sense of doing it himself beforehand (where the PCs are then turned into powerless cheerleader's for the GM's brilliance, a la so many WW-games), or in the sense of making that the central mission of the game (where creating a certain kind of story becomes the central purpose of the gameplay, in a game that is not meant to create story intentionally at all, a la so much Forge theory nonsense).

If you agree with this, then I'm left wondering why the fuck you spent several pages derailing this thread to come after me with bullshit accusations and not-so-clever sarcasm, rather than addressing whatever the fuck it is you're on about that benoist may or may not have said.

RPGPundit

Nobody said anything about a story, why would I bring that up in a thread that had nothing to do with that? I make a little joke, you come screaming in blubbering about something that you now say has nothing to do with the topic, and suddenly I'm the one who needs to take a stand on some ridiculous irrelevancy that only you have brought into the thread?

 Anyway, I don't agree, plenty of regular ole RPGs are played with an eye towards creating a story, which really has nothing to do with GM-prepared stories. GMs can push towards story without pre-preparing anything, and that's a problem if that's not your goal, and it's not if it is. But that isn't really the topic here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;497684He claimed that it was enormously successful, when in fact its not. By Forge terms, its games like Poison'd, Grey Ranks, the Shab Al-hiri roach, My Life with Master, etc. that are enormously successful. They are the ones that are talked about. That's what its all about.

He didn't claim it was enormously successful he said that there were other games besides the ones that are mentioned here. And then he linked to what people at storygames and the Forge talk about and yes it's not only the misery tour games that are talked about. Of course with you and others bringing up and linking to these games every single chance you get a general search would reveal that those are the games most often talked about but it's not what the storygames and Forge crowd obsess over. And let's not forget that by constanly linking to these games you and others have contributed to the sales and the success of these games.

QuoteHe's answered my questions with snide sarcastic comments, non sequiters, counterattacks, and a general willful obstinacy when it comes to saying things even he can't possibly believe.  Its not about "accepting my narrative", its not "my narrative" that Ron Edwards hates White Wolf's games and has written about how they failed to actually "tell story". That's not me, that's FACT. He fucking WROTE ABOUT IT; and there's no reasonable way that corley couldn't have known that.  And remember, that was the part he was initially trying to dispute.

Did you even read his post ? He didn't deny that Ron didn't like WW games. It's right there in his post. So what the hell are you going on about. That he (JD) doesn't believe and buy into the narrative that the whole Forge/Story movement is completely a reaction against WW games ? Got news for you, there are many critics of the Forge/Storygames who don't buy this. (JD, correct me if I'm wrong here)

QuoteBelieve me, I won't hesitate to ban someone who is consistently disruptive.   Its not a step I take lightly.  If I were just going around banning someone for not liking them, he'd be gone by now.  But that's not the standard I use, contrary to what the pundit-haters try to pretend (idiotically, because if that were the case none of them would be here).

Ok, where has JD been consistently disruptive ? And if you can't point to a pattern, why threaten him in the first place ?

Regards,
David R