Quote from: RPGPunditBecause I'm sorry, dude, but given how many Theory-people have stated that D&D is basically only "made for" dungeon crawling and can't do anything else really well, that play of any other kind with D&D is either "incoherent" or broken, you're going to have to clarify your support for D&D as a full-blown RPG capable of running all kinds of stuff besides Dungeon Crawls just as well as other RPGs do. If indeed you really support that.

OK, so "clarify my support"?  In general, I haven't played much D&D, and when I have it was usually dungeons.  I played in, The Hero-Cults of Isthar Campaign, GMed by Russell Impagliazzo.  I only played a few sessions of that, but it was non-dungeon-y.  I've also got a reasonably featured D&D Notes Page, though I guess one could say that it is all dungeon-compatible.  (My own not-yet-run campaign idea, Dawn of Fire, is dungeon-based -- hence the prickling at the dumping on dungeons.)  

But there's nothing dungeon specific.  I ran a Ravenloft mini-campaign that rarely went underground, for example, prior to 3rd edition and that was considerably less flexible than 3ed.

Pundit was absolutely right when he talked about sophisticated D&D games, though. I am totally proof that D&D and other d20 games are not just about killing Gygaxian monsters in badly stereotyped dungeons.

People see good combat rules and assume that because D&D has a good combat engine that must be all it's good for. droog, who asked in good faith, saw those rules and decided that playing D&D to its strengths meant primarily a really strong dungeon crawl. But that's only partially true. The other parts of D&D's strengths is just how well it sets the standards for traditional gaming.

It's skill system is very good on multiple levels. It's got a robust social skill system (something that I still champion), and it's got a great set of tools for interacting with the world. Granted, I'd collapse some of these, but it still stands that these are, when used properly, a cornerstone to the game system.

There are other things too, but those are some basics. I used D&D to put together a very solid game based on political and literal backstabbing and social upheaval based on the strength of the skill system alone. And when the PCs resorted to fighting in the allyways of the city, the system didn't let me down. Now, I certainly don't use D&D for everything, but it does it's job well and in a variety of situations.

IME, a lot more sophistication and work has to go into a dungeon of proper size and complexity than a game of political intrigue or domain management. Only creating the "table" for a hex-crawl comes close. When I read about people posting how they could "write a good dungeon in no time", I just shake my head - because none of these clowns have been able to do it.

But o-kay, back to Pundit and jhkim pummeling the living shit out of each other. :haw:

Quote from: MelanIME, a lot more sophistication and work has to go into a dungeon of proper size and complexity than a game of political intrigue or domain management.

Oh, I don't quite agree with this. It's just that it's a very different type of effort.
If the social dynamic is unchanging, then it's enough to assign skill levels to NPCs and a static agenda, but if you do it more in-depth, then there's the issue of who's doing what when. The movie Spy Games inspired a lot of my work in terms of pacing and actions, except when commandos were hired to save people, that was the PCs too.