Quote from: Elliot WilenNah, I really have a lot of your games on my "to check out eventually" list, they sound interesting...and I just noticed that you've finished that WWI aces game you were talking about, which if anything is even more up my alley than In Harm's Way or your space games (which is saying something).

The same goes for the other guys: I'm interested, there's just a lot out there, and with a few exceptions I try not to buy something unless I have a firm commitment to play or find a good deal in the used market. I guess I'm just a bad consumer

Hi Elliot:

I think this needs it's own topic, but this all ties into "how do you sell/why would you buy a game without Network Externalities." This is a problem every small press publisher faces. One way is evengelizing. This is the Forge approach, and it works. The designer is all excited about the game, and preaches to everyone they need to check it out because it is so awesome that it can change your gaming life, and has a network of friends that back him up and offer testimony. The excitement and fervor are infectious, and the testimonies compelling. You buy into it, and the excitement carries over into recruiting for your game.

Unfortunately for me, I... I just can't do that. Maybe it's my thoroughly New England Yankee upbringing, but the thought of displaying so much emotion, and using it to sell to others, is... disquieting. The thought of showing that much pride and love in public for something I made makes me squeamish. The pride and love I feel for my games is contained and controlled, and I am perfectly cognizant that my games are not perfect in themselves, nor are they the best fit for everyone, nor are they revolutionary or innovative. I do know they are perfect for me, but that will hardly sell them to someone else.

Another way is to behave as if you were a big enough company to afford real marketing. This is an excellent approach, provided you have the mad marketing/sales skills to pull it off. Some folks have been very successful at it. Others have crashed and burned on the rock of their own incompetence. I am smart enough to realize I'm not smart enough to pull this one off.

So far, my approach to marketing has been purely "This is available, and it may possibly suit what you are doing." This is not optimal, sales wise, though it's entirely honest. The low key approach tends to get drowned out in the general buzz. I sound like I don't believe in my own product, which is absolutely not true. I am just uncomfortable with anything more.

It's a dilemma I don't know how to solve.

-clash

Well if you dont feel right acting as a carnival barker (so to speak) for your product. Perhaphs you should start a street team. These indiviuals can spread the word of your product to the internat boards they fequent. As well as FLGS, con, and ect. This is probably something you have already considered. but I thought I would throw it out there.

Quote from: flyingmiceHi Elliot:

It's a dilemma I don't know how to solve.

-clash

I write the software  at a company making metal cutting machines (http://www.plasma-automation.com). The machines start at $50,000 and up. 90% of them are sold through a dealer network of salesmen.

How machinery sales works is that salesman is an independent contractor or or part of an independent company. The salesman has a linecard of machines they sell. Most of our salesmen sell more than just our machines. They sell a range of machines need by a particular industry. Our machines are marketed to the HVAC industry (Heating and Air Conditioning).

Typically the sales works one of two ways. Either the shop owner looks up manufacturer salesmen in his area and calls them. Or the Salesman looks up who has HVAC shops and pays them a visit. The result is that the salesman has to pitch his linecard (including our machine) to the owner and convince him why it better then the other half-dozen odd competition along sometimes along why he needs it in the first place.

For example our machine is one of the few that will increase productivity a 100 fold over manual methods. (Most machines offer don't have that big of an impact on a shop's productivity). But a shop owner used to the manual ways doesn't know that and this needs to be explained.

Now Salesmen are very very different as a rule from say people like myself and the engineers that design the machine. While many priorities overlap sometimes what they want a new design to have differ than what the enginneer feel a new design should have and the result is conflict.

Why does this apply to your dilemma? Because when we get into a sales versus engineer situation I hear things like "It stupid how they sell." or how they are slimy salesmen, etc, etc.

Sales, like any other human endeavor, require a certain set of skills. Some people can do it well some can't. Some like it and some don't.

At it's worst is about a snake oil guys pushing a shoddy product onto a unsuspecting customer. That the image many have of salesmen in general.

But the best salesmen are those who are about EDUCATING their customers. About getting a deal that good for not just them, and their company, but their customers as well. Because they are local to the area, it is important to have repeat business and referrals.

However you may feel about sales, you have to do it if you want your product to succeed. However rather than looking at it some type of chore where you have to fake a million watt smile. Think of yourself as a teacher with a class of one, the customer. You need to educate them about your game. What it can do and not do.

And there are some other common sales tactics you need to master. One is that you a CONFIDENT in your game. That you personally think it is a good game for it purpose. Another tactics that you personally interested in listening to them. That your game is not god's gift to gaming but something interesting for them to try and play. I personally think that is #1 why many people are turned off by the games designed at the Forge.

From comments earlier in your post you seem to have a grasp on most of this. Just be confident in that you produced a FUN game that some people will enjoy and don't be afraid to talk up your game.

Quote from: RoninWell if you dont feel right acting as a carnival barker (so to speak) for your product. Perhaphs you should start a street team. These indiviuals can spread the word of your product to the internat boards they fequent. As well as FLGS, con, and ect. This is probably something you have already considered. but I thought I would throw it out there.

As an old rock and roller, Street Teams are a concept I'm very familiar with. I'd just never thought of applying them to RPGs. Funny how the brain works! This bears further thought!

Thanks much, Phil!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceAs an old rock and roller, Street Teams are a concept I'm very familiar with. I'd just never thought of applying them to RPGs. Funny how the brain works! This bears further thought!

Thanks much, Phil!

-clash

Your welcome, but my names not Phil. Its Sam but your welcome just the same.

Quote from: flyingmiceAnother way is to behave as if you were a big enough company to afford real marketing. This is an excellent approach, provided you have the mad marketing/sales skills to pull it off. Some folks have been very successful at it. Others have crashed and burned on the rock of their own incompetence. I am smart enough to realize I'm not smart enough to pull this one off.

I so suck.

Quote from: flyingmiceSo far, my approach to marketing has been purely "This is available, and it may possibly suit what you are doing." This is not optimal, sales wise, though it's entirely honest. The low key approach tends to get drowned out in the general buzz. I sound like I don't believe in my own product, which is absolutely not true. I am just uncomfortable with anything more.

It's a dilemma I don't know how to solve.

-clash

Honestly, it depends you your market Clash. For HinterWelt it is a multi-tier effort. I do not bother with distro. I focus on Retailers and customers. Having a good customer service record is important.

Honestly, I hear what you say. Similarly, I do not claim my games fill all needs. I have a wide range but the style is not for everyone. I have gone as far as to give people their money back if they were dissatisfied. I have said repeatedly, I would rather have 1 satisfied customer than 1000 dissatisfied ones.

Also, you are better at building networks than you let on. The PBP that you do forges awareness of your games. I am really in a rough place since I truly cannot stand such games. So, don't sell yourself short. By running those games you are able to demonstrate how your games run and build a network of players and GMs who are familiar with your games.

As an aside, if you approach distro as a means of marketing/advertising and not as a primary revenue source (however you should still make money on it) it can be a powerful means of spreading the word about your games.

Bill

Quote from: RoninPerhaphs you should start a street team.

Regrettably, in this hobby, this has also become known as "schilling" and tends to garner an author or publisher a pretty bad name in short order.  I personally don't think that's quite right, but it's just how things stand.

!i!

If you're small press, you don't really need to worry about network externalities, you just sell to GMs; and your target market is very specifically GMs who like your games and would have a group willing to play what the GM wants.

So you need to orient your sales in that direction. Network externalities is only a concern for companies that like to pretend they're in competition with D&D.

RPGPundit

Quote from: estarI write the software  at a company making metal cutting machines (http://www.plasma-automation.com). The machines start at $50,000 and up. 90% of them are sold through a dealer network of salesmen.

How machinery sales works is that salesman is an independent contractor or or part of an independent company. The salesman has a linecard of machines they sell. Most of our salesmen sell more than just our machines. They sell a range of machines need by a particular industry. Our machines are marketed to the HVAC industry (Heating and Air Conditioning).

Typically the sales works one of two ways. Either the shop owner looks up manufacturer salesmen in his area and calls them. Or the Salesman looks up who has HVAC shops and pays them a visit. The result is that the salesman has to pitch his linecard (including our machine) to the owner and convince him why it better then the other half-dozen odd competition along sometimes along why he needs it in the first place.

For example our machine is one of the few that will increase productivity a 100 fold over manual methods. (Most machines offer don't have that big of an impact on a shop's productivity). But a shop owner used to the manual ways doesn't know that and this needs to be explained.

Now Salesmen are very very different as a rule from say people like myself and the engineers that design the machine. While many priorities overlap sometimes what they want a new design to have differ than what the enginneer feel a new design should have and the result is conflict.

Why does this apply to your dilemma? Because when we get into a sales versus engineer situation I hear things like "It stupid how they sell." or how they are slimy salesmen, etc, etc.

Sales, like any other human endeavor, require a certain set of skills. Some people can do it well some can't. Some like it and some don't.

At it's worst is about a snake oil guys pushing a shoddy product onto a unsuspecting customer. That the image many have of salesmen in general.

But the best salesmen are those who are about EDUCATING their customers. About getting a deal that good for not just them, and their company, but their customers as well. Because they are local to the area, it is important to have repeat business and referrals.

However you may feel about sales, you have to do it if you want your product to succeed. However rather than looking at it some type of chore where you have to fake a million watt smile. Think of yourself as a teacher with a class of one, the customer. You need to educate them about your game. What it can do and not do.

And there are some other common sales tactics you need to master. One is that you a CONFIDENT in your game. That you personally think it is a good game for it purpose. Another tactics that you personally interested in listening to them. That your game is not god's gift to gaming but something interesting for them to try and play. I personally think that is #1 why many people are turned off by the games designed at the Forge.

From comments earlier in your post you seem to have a grasp on most of this. Just be confident in that you produced a FUN game that some people will enjoy and don't be afraid to talk up your game.

Hi estar!

Ah, my dad was a sales engineer and rep for a machine tool company, and I worked with him for ten years as a designer, draftsman, and office manager. He had these skills, and he approached it in this very way. I was never able to actually do it myself. Believe me, I have no bias against this type of sales approach - I admired my father intensely - I just couldn't seem to pull it off personally. I ended up feeling foolish and awkward. My father's thought was that I empathized with the customer too much - that I didn't have the necessary detachment to be like a surgeon, able to dissect the customer's problem and solve it from the outside, sure enough of my product's superiority that I can convince the customer that it would be in his own best interests to buy the product, no matter the risk. I think that was an astute observation. I am probably too aware that tastes differ, and what works for me may not work for them, so I can't bring myself to convince them to take that risk, even if I truly believe it will probably work out for the better.

There's some self-analysis!

-clash

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you're small press, you don't really need to worry about network externalities, you just sell to GMs; and your target market is very specifically GMs who like your games and would have a group willing to play what the GM wants.

So you need to orient your sales in that direction. Network externalities is only a concern for companies that like to pretend they're in competition with D&D.

RPGPundit

That's why I said "Without Network Externalities," Pundit. I don't have them and never will. I have to deal on an entirely different basis - as you said, basically on an individual GM level.

-clash

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaRegrettably, in this hobby, this has also become known as "schilling" and tends to garner an author or publisher a pretty bad name in short order.  I personally don't think that's quite right, but it's just how things stand.

!i!

Yes. If I did this, it would have to be handled very carefully. I don't like schilling any more than the next guy. I was thinking more in terms of demo teams and such.

-clash

Quote from: RoninYour welcome, but my names not Phil. Its Sam but your welcome just the same.

OK, then! Thanks, Sam! Sorry for the confusion!

-clash

Quote from: HinterWeltI so suck.

Honestly, it depends you your market Clash. For HinterWelt it is a multi-tier effort. I do not bother with distro. I focus on Retailers and customers. Having a good customer service record is important.

Honestly, I hear what you say. Similarly, I do not claim my games fill all needs. I have a wide range but the style is not for everyone. I have gone as far as to give people their money back if they were dissatisfied. I have said repeatedly, I would rather have 1 satisfied customer than 1000 dissatisfied ones.

Also, you are better at building networks than you let on. The PBP that you do forges awareness of your games. I am really in a rough place since I truly cannot stand such games. So, don't sell yourself short. By running those games you are able to demonstrate how your games run and build a network of players and GMs who are familiar with your games.

As an aside, if you approach distro as a means of marketing/advertising and not as a primary revenue source (however you should still make money on it) it can be a powerful means of spreading the word about your games.

Bill

Thanks, Bill! I'm the same way. I've also always given refunds when people weren't satisfied with the game for whatever reason. It just makes things so much easier.

I really do need to get more games into distro. I will probably have to talk with Key 20.

-clahs

This thread kinda got sidetracked at the start. What I actually was looking for was not tips on marketing my games, but more "how do GMs 'sell' these games to their players." Eliot mentioned "with a few exceptions I try not to buy something unless I have a firm commitment to play," which means he has to sell the game to his players before he will buy it. With games like D&D, D20, and WW, there are enough gamers around who know the game already, but how would you pitch a Small Press game that you don't really know to people who most likely never heard of it?

I kind of wandered off that subject in my initial post.... Sorry!

-clash

I may not be the best person to answer, since I do in fact buy way more RPGs than I have time to run or chances to play.     But I know that for me, "a firm commitment to play" does not mean I already have players -- only that I intend to run a game and recruit or lobby players for it as needed.  In other words, you don't have to market and sell to my entire group -- just to me.  

I'm easily hooked by games that (A) look "cool" and get me excited about running a game, and (B) will make my life easier as GM.  Unfortunately, (A) and (B) don't always go hand in hand.

[LIST=A]

• Getting me excited about the game usually entails an interesting premise, setting, or period, or a particularly well written version of an other wise well-worn one.  This is what got me to buy Cold Space and FTL Now.
  
• Making my life easier as GM means a system and a premise that are easy to teach and to remember; a system that moves the story along without bogging down frequently to look up special rules or argue about how they work; quick and easy statting of NPCs; and a toolbox approach that allows me to handle special cases without needing a whole new sourcebook or set of houserules.  The hope of (B) is what drives me to buy a lot of self-contained, small-press games.