Ravenloft was defined by the struggle characters faced inside it, against the Dark Powers and resisting the temptation of the corrupting power of Dark Gifts. In Nu-Ravenloft, there's no more Dark Power Checks, and no real consequences to taking all the evil superpowers you like.
Also, resultingly, it has no moral compass. On purpose.
The saddest part of this nu-Ravenloft, speaking from the POV of a Christian fan of D&D, is along with generally ruining the legacy of the game with their stupidity and soapboxing, the SJWs are, probably intentionally, helping confirm what the anti-D&D crowd was claiming about the game decades ago.
Not so much that the game is a gateway to Satanism, but that it encourages players to indulge in lapses of moral standards, if not outright evil acts, under the guise of having fun and to earn rewards for doing so. The loss of alignments doesn't help.
*Sigh* Well, at least I have my copies of 1st and 2nd and 3.5 edition books.
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 29, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
The saddest part of this nu-Ravenloft, speaking from the POV of a Christian fan of D&D, is along with generally ruining the legacy of the game with their stupidity and soapboxing, the SJWs are, probably intentionally, helping confirm what the anti-D&D crowd was claiming about the game decades ago.
Not so much that the game is a gateway to Satanism, but that it encourages players to indulge in lapses of moral standards, if not outright evil acts, under the guise of having fun and to earn rewards for doing so. The loss of alignments doesn't help.
*Sigh* Well, at least I have my copies of 1st and 2nd and 3.5 edition books.
The inclusion of the 'spirit board' doesn't help, either, especially with numerous voices online clamoring for Hasbro to make a Ravenloft-branded Ouija board.
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 29, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
The saddest part of this nu-Ravenloft, speaking from the POV of a Christian fan of D&D, is along with generally ruining the legacy of the game with their stupidity and soapboxing, the SJWs are, probably intentionally, helping confirm what the anti-D&D crowd was claiming about the game decades ago.
Not so much that the game is a gateway to Satanism, but that it encourages players to indulge in lapses of moral standards, if not outright evil acts, under the guise of having fun and to earn rewards for doing so. The loss of alignments doesn't help.
*Sigh* Well, at least I have my copies of 1st and 2nd and 3.5 edition books.
Greetings!
This is an excellent point, Renegade! The Nu-Ravenloft is presenting stuff, even mystical, quasi-satanic things in a manner that...geesus. ;D Yeah, such doesn't do the D&D game brand any favours, and it seems purposely *intent* on provoking the absolute worst reactions from Christians, of whatever flavour.
So sad, and so frustrating.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 29, 2021, 09:12:31 PM
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 29, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
The saddest part of this nu-Ravenloft, speaking from the POV of a Christian fan of D&D, is along with generally ruining the legacy of the game with their stupidity and soapboxing, the SJWs are, probably intentionally, helping confirm what the anti-D&D crowd was claiming about the game decades ago.
Not so much that the game is a gateway to Satanism, but that it encourages players to indulge in lapses of moral standards, if not outright evil acts, under the guise of having fun and to earn rewards for doing so. The loss of alignments doesn't help.
*Sigh* Well, at least I have my copies of 1st and 2nd and 3.5 edition books.
The inclusion of the 'spirit board' doesn't help, either, especially with numerous voices online clamoring for Hasbro to make a Ravenloft-branded Ouija board.
Greetings!
Very true, Armchair Gamer! It is disturbing to note that in the old TSR days, most of the people running things were professed Christians, with others that weren't which were nonetheless sensitive to the Christian market, and wanting to avoid intentionally offending Christians.
The current staff, as far as I have seen, are not only *NOT* Christians, but they seem to hold a decidedly hostile and anti-Christian world view.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 29, 2021, 09:12:31 PMThe inclusion of the 'spirit board' doesn't help, either, especially with numerous voices online clamoring for Hasbro to make a Ravenloft-branded Ouija board.
Jesus wept please no!
One of my aunts had a real board and could actually make it work.
I dont care if its subconsious reflex or spirits from beyond. These things are not toys and using one for a D&D session with the new era of mentally unstable players is literally getting on your knees and begging for disaster.
If innocent people were not nigh 100% likely to get hurt I'd say "Yeah WOTC. Go ahead an make em."
Unfortunately odds are WOTC WILL make em or convince Hasbro to because... money "And hay its not our fault the kid blew themselves up with the grenade we packed in with the game. We even put a warning in the rules that pulling the pin was dangerous."
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 29, 2021, 09:12:31 PM
The inclusion of the 'spirit board' doesn't help, either, especially with numerous voices online clamoring for Hasbro to make a Ravenloft-branded Ouija board.
No it doesn't. Me, I just roll my eyes at those things these days, but if they did make one with that theme, given what year we're in, *headdesk X3*.
Quote from: SHARK on May 29, 2021, 09:39:05 PM
Greetings!
This is an excellent point, Renegade! The Nu-Ravenloft is presenting stuff, even mystical, quasi-satanic things in a manner that...geesus. ;D Yeah, such doesn't do the D&D game brand any favours, and it seems purposely *intent* on provoking the absolute worst reactions from Christians, of whatever flavour.
So sad, and so frustrating.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings in return, SHARK.
Yes it is, and as Pundit and others have pointed out, this is being done with an aesthetic that gives the impression of whimsy and Scooby Doo rather than one that says you're in a place where the powers at play delight in encouraging evil acts and bringing the freshly corrupted, by their own hands, into their ranks.
Glad to see the older, and better versed, players noticing and mocking this perversion of the game and setting, though. It deserves it.
TBH it reminds me somehow this ridiculous way they dealt with Chaos Corruption in 4e of Warhammer Fantasy, when you lose Corruption points if you indulge in Chaotic behaviour (presented as Dark Whispers your GM can use).
Quote from: Wrath of God on May 30, 2021, 09:22:24 AM
TBH it reminds me somehow this ridiculous way they dealt with Chaos Corruption in 4e of Warhammer Fantasy, when you lose Corruption points if you indulge in Chaotic behaviour (presented as Dark Whispers your GM can use).
Damn those worshippers of the dark gods must be the least corrupt dudes in the setting with that mechanic.
Scooby Doo (the first two seasons, anyway) is awesome. I've enjoyed them all over again as an adult watching them with my kids.
Please stop insulting it by comparing it to lame WOTC D&D product >:( :P ;D
Quote from: JeffB on May 30, 2021, 11:33:12 AM
Scooby Doo (the first two seasons, anyway) is awesome. I've enjoyed them all over again as an adult watching them with my kids.
Please stop insulting it by comparing it to lame WOTC D&D product >:( :P ;D
It's the most apt comparison, sadly. And whatever is the easiest to steal from, WOTC seems to use it.
Quote from: JeffB on May 30, 2021, 11:33:12 AM
Scooby Doo (the first two seasons, anyway) is awesome. I've enjoyed them all over again as an adult watching them with my kids.
If you get a group that doesn't take shit too seriously, doing a one-shot Ravenloft as Scooby Doo might be a lot of fun, especially if you really lay into it.
Get some of the music, maybe a laugh track on occasion, get the Barovia Globe Trotters to make a guest appearance, "let's see who Strahd REALLY is!"
Quote from: Thornhammer on May 30, 2021, 09:51:43 PMGet some of the music, maybe a laugh track on occasion, get the Barovia Globe Trotters to make a guest appearance, "let's see who Strahd REALLY is!"
(gasp) "BURGOMEISTER KOLYAN?!"
"And I would've gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling halflings!"
Wow, after the shit games like Warhammer 40k and Kult pulled, its dnd that end up literally corrupting the youth. I really woudnt think this possible even 10 years ago.
No consequences Ravenloft? Equals no interest in the new version excet as a cautionary tale.
Quote from: Thornhammer on May 30, 2021, 09:51:43 PM
Quote from: JeffB on May 30, 2021, 11:33:12 AM
Scooby Doo (the first two seasons, anyway) is awesome. I've enjoyed them all over again as an adult watching them with my kids.
If you get a group that doesn't take shit too seriously, doing a one-shot Ravenloft as Scooby Doo might be a lot of fun, especially if you really lay into it.
Get some of the music, maybe a laugh track on occasion, get the Barovia Globe Trotters to make a guest appearance, "let's see who Strahd REALLY is!"
;D
I do a pretty mean Scooby Doo impression!
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 30, 2021, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: JeffB on May 30, 2021, 11:33:12 AM
Scooby Doo (the first two seasons, anyway) is awesome. I've enjoyed them all over again as an adult watching them with my kids.
Please stop insulting it by comparing it to lame WOTC D&D product >:( :P ;D
It's the most apt comparison, sadly. And whatever is the easiest to steal from, WOTC seems to use it.
No, I get it.
I gave up on WOTC years ago. At some point they completely ruin everything they acquire. TSR era D&D settings. Star Wars games. In recent years- D&D proper. I wish they'd give up the rights for DragonQuest so we could get a decent re-make/retro clone.
There's always DragonRaid.
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 29, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
The saddest part of this nu-Ravenloft, speaking from the POV of a Christian fan of D&D, is along with generally ruining the legacy of the game with their stupidity and soapboxing, the SJWs are, probably intentionally, helping confirm what the anti-D&D crowd was claiming about the game decades ago.
Not so much that the game is a gateway to Satanism, but that it encourages players to indulge in lapses of moral standards, if not outright evil acts, under the guise of having fun and to earn rewards for doing so. The loss of alignments doesn't help.
I don't have links offhand - but as I recall, in the past Pundit has said that it was good for D&D to be controversial and edgy - pissing off the conservative Christian crowd, because it made it a cool thing for rebellious teenagers to do. With AD&D, it allowed players to play things like half-orc assassins, priests to pagan gods, and so forth.
Personally, I am highly skeptical that evil acts in fictional fantasy encourage real-life moral lapses - or that gun violence in video games encourages real-life gun violence, as a direct parallel.
Games aren't real life.
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
Personally, I am highly skeptical that evil acts in fictional fantasy encourage real-life moral lapses - or that gun violence in video games encourages real-life gun violence, as a direct parallel.
Games aren't real life.
Correct. And fictional representations of people don't cause real attitudes towards people.
And yet they didn't think to include the spell Scooby Door so that whenever you go through a door in a corridor you come out of another random door.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 31, 2021, 02:38:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
Personally, I am highly skeptical that evil acts in fictional fantasy encourage real-life moral lapses - or that gun violence in video games encourages real-life gun violence, as a direct parallel.
Games aren't real life.
Correct. And fictional representations of people don't cause real attitudes towards people.
The CSI effect and various studies suggests there's at least some influence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_mass_media
The exact level of influence is debatable, but it's not zero.
But I doubt depictions of
fantasy creatures that people know don't exist will influence anybody's views of real groups.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 02:50:24 PM
The CSI effect and various studies suggests there's at least some influence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_mass_media
The exact level of influence is debatable, but it's not zero.
But I doubt depictions of fantasy creatures that people know don't exist will influence anybody's views of real groups.
Right. I would agree that there are plenty of effects from fictional depictions of real things. i.e. A lot of people's views of radiation is influenced more by fiction than fact, for example.
Also, I'll put in some exception especially for young children's media. Media consumption in young kids likely influences personality development.
But "Speak With Dead" in a D&D game doesn't encourage real-life sin and immorality, when played by teens and adults.
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 02:50:24 PM
The CSI effect and various studies suggests there's at least some influence.
The exact level of influence is debatable, but it's not zero.
I would agree that there are plenty of effects from fictional depictions of real things. ...Also, I'll put in some exception especially for young children's media. Media consumption in young kids likely influences personality development.
And since this effect is largely accumulative over time and with multiple repetition of tropes throughout multiple media products, any attempt to link a specific case of maladjusted behaviour to exposure to a specific product is specious at best. Generally the only cases where this is directly obvious are in people who already have documented psychological issues.
The real counterbalance to this kind of influence should be better education, both informational and moral, but in the West nowadays it seems like the increasing polarization over the latter has led to a breakdown in trust of the institutions charged with the former.
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 03:09:13 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 31, 2021, 02:50:24 PM
The CSI effect and various studies suggests there's at least some influence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_of_mass_media
The exact level of influence is debatable, but it's not zero.
But I doubt depictions of fantasy creatures that people know don't exist will influence anybody's views of real groups.
Right. I would agree that there are plenty of effects from fictional depictions of real things. i.e. A lot of people's views of radiation is influenced more by fiction than fact, for example.
Also, I'll put in some exception especially for young children's media. Media consumption in young kids likely influences personality development.
But "Speak With Dead" in a D&D game doesn't encourage real-life sin and immorality, when played by teens and adults.
Yeah, I am not too worried about kids playing with a ouija boardgames. The original Ravenloft eventually put out dice and cards for fortune telling, and that really added to play. Lots of people just used Tarot Cards. I grew up religious, this stuff doesn't bother me. I also listened to The Number of the Beast, read books on the occult, etc. If individual parents want to stop their kids from playing with a game because of religious concerns, that is certainly up to them (I wasn't allowed to play D&D for a number of years on those grounds). But I think the last thing we should be doing is parroting the concerns of the satanic panic over this stuff. Hasbro already puts out the game Ouija itself and no one complains about that. I don't see how it would be any worse for them to use that in cross-over products. I think the bigger issue really is the potential price tag (if they made it essential to playing Ravenloft that you also needed to buy a whole other board game, I could see that being a problem). I'm old enough now to have seen many exaggerations of the impact of media on young people and on adults. I'd be much more concerns about what kids are doing on twitter and facebook, than what they are doing in fantasy roleplaying games.
Quote from: Warder on May 31, 2021, 04:56:02 AM
Wow, after the shit games like Warhammer 40k and Kult pulled, its dnd that end up literally corrupting the youth. I really woudnt think this possible even 10 years ago.
No consequences Ravenloft? Equals no interest in the new version excet as a cautionary tale.
Albeit in a completely different way than BADD and the Satanic Panic folks would have everyone believe back then, but yeah, it goes to show what kinds of internal damage SJWs in droves can do.
Quote from: JeffB on May 31, 2021, 10:14:45 AM
No, I get it.
I gave up on WOTC years ago. At some point they completely ruin everything they acquire. TSR era D&D settings. Star Wars games. In recent years- D&D proper. I wish they'd give up the rights for DragonQuest so we could get a decent re-make/retro clone.
One can hope. Me, I'll just hoard all the 3.5 and older stuff I can get my hands on.
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
I don't have links offhand - but as I recall, in the past Pundit has said that it was good for D&D to be controversial and edgy - pissing off the conservative Christian crowd, because it made it a cool thing for rebellious teenagers to do. With AD&D, it allowed players to play things like half-orc assassins, priests to pagan gods, and so forth.
Personally, I am highly skeptical that evil acts in fictional fantasy encourage real-life moral lapses - or that gun violence in video games encourages real-life gun violence, as a direct parallel.
Games aren't real life.
No, but they're not therapy either, and that's what D&D is being made into at present with this shift towards the 'Play it however you want. You can do no wrong' ideals and general softballing. (The settings get watered down, if not perverted, at the same time.)
As I said before, I don't see D&D as a gateway to Satanism, but these days, with how mentally fragile if not broken people are becoming, it very well can become a hollow treatment for an issue that needs a professional or some other real world solution.
And we all suffer when that happens.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 31, 2021, 03:43:22 PM
And since this effect is largely accumulative over time and with multiple repetition of tropes throughout multiple media products, any attempt to link a specific case of maladjusted behaviour to exposure to a specific product is specious at best. Generally the only cases where this is directly obvious are in people who already have documented psychological issues.
The real counterbalance to this kind of influence should be better education, both informational and moral, but in the West nowadays it seems like the increasing polarization over the latter has led to a breakdown in trust of the institutions charged with the former.
Pretty much. As for what you just described, that's essentially nurturing, and to reach back a few decades, the commies knew how powerful cinema and other forms of entertainment were in that regard. Hence, to quote Vladimir Lenin, "Give me a generation, and I will change the world."
Since D&D is nothing if not an American entertainment cornerstone, and SJWs are essentially modern day commies...
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 31, 2021, 07:27:13 PM
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
Personally, I am highly skeptical that evil acts in fictional fantasy encourage real-life moral lapses - or that gun violence in video games encourages real-life gun violence, as a direct parallel.
Games aren't real life.
No, but they're not therapy either, and that's what D&D is being made into at present with this shift towards the 'Play it however you want. You can do no wrong' ideals and general softballing. (The settings get watered down, if not perverted, at the same time.)
As I see it, "Play it however you want" is something players say when they *don't* regard RPGs as therapy or otherwise important, but just as a fun pastime. For example, I might not like how some edition of a game is written. In that case, I don't like it for myself and wouldn't want to play it. If other people play it and like it, though, I don't care and I don't think they're harming themselves or others.
Quote from: JeffB on May 31, 2021, 10:14:45 AM
I wish they'd give up the rights for DragonQuest so we could get a decent re-make/retro clone.
That's one of the few new games I might actually pay money to get my hands on.
Thanks TSR, for buying up bunches of crap, then going broke, and getting your own shit bought up by a bunch of hacks best known for publishing a card game, best known for putting RPG companies out of business, and then getting its ass handed to it by Pokemon :/
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 29, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
The saddest part of this nu-Ravenloft, speaking from the POV of a Christian fan of D&D, is along with generally ruining the legacy of the game with their stupidity and soapboxing, the SJWs are, probably intentionally, helping confirm what the anti-D&D crowd was claiming about the game decades ago.
Not so much that the game is a gateway to Satanism, but that it encourages players to indulge in lapses of moral standards, if not outright evil acts, under the guise of having fun and to earn rewards for doing so. The loss of alignments doesn't help.
I don't have links offhand - but as I recall, in the past Pundit has said that it was good for D&D to be controversial and edgy - pissing off the conservative Christian crowd, because it made it a cool thing for rebellious teenagers to do. With AD&D, it allowed players to play things like half-orc assassins, priests to pagan gods, and so forth.
Personally, I am highly skeptical that evil acts in fictional fantasy encourage real-life moral lapses - or that gun violence in video games encourages real-life gun violence, as a direct parallel.
Games aren't real life.
What I did say was that, from a business perspective, it was much better for D&D's popularity when kids' parents were worried that playing D&D would turn you into a satanist than later on, when parents were worried that playing D&D would turn you into a 34-year old virgin still living in their basement.
There's a huge difference between D&D having an element of "Heavy Metal" style edgy rebelliousness, and D&D becoming a propaganda tool of the Woke Leftist Establishment.
The current D&D-as-Indoctrination is not encouraging rebelliousness, but rather encouraging conformity to the agenda of the new social Establishment. The equivalent comparison isn't to when D&D was an edgy free-for-all, it's closer to when Comics became yoked by the Comics Code Authority.
Quote from: RPGPundit on June 01, 2021, 03:23:03 AM
Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2021, 01:04:36 PM
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on May 29, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
The saddest part of this nu-Ravenloft, speaking from the POV of a Christian fan of D&D, is along with generally ruining the legacy of the game with their stupidity and soapboxing, the SJWs are, probably intentionally, helping confirm what the anti-D&D crowd was claiming about the game decades ago.
Not so much that the game is a gateway to Satanism, but that it encourages players to indulge in lapses of moral standards, if not outright evil acts, under the guise of having fun and to earn rewards for doing so. The loss of alignments doesn't help.
I don't have links offhand - but as I recall, in the past Pundit has said that it was good for D&D to be controversial and edgy - pissing off the conservative Christian crowd, because it made it a cool thing for rebellious teenagers to do. With AD&D, it allowed players to play things like half-orc assassins, priests to pagan gods, and so forth.
Personally, I am highly skeptical that evil acts in fictional fantasy encourage real-life moral lapses - or that gun violence in video games encourages real-life gun violence, as a direct parallel.
Games aren't real life.
What I did say was that, from a business perspective, it was much better for D&D's popularity when kids' parents were worried that playing D&D would turn you into a satanist than later on, when parents were worried that playing D&D would turn you into a 34-year old virgin still living in their basement.
There's a huge difference between D&D having an element of "Heavy Metal" style edgy rebelliousness, and D&D becoming a propaganda tool of the Woke Leftist Establishment.
The current D&D-as-Indoctrination is not encouraging rebelliousness, but rather encouraging conformity to the agenda of the new social Establishment. The equivalent comparison isn't to when D&D was an edgy free-for-all, it's closer to when Comics became yoked by the Comics Code Authority.
On the upshot, if history repeats itself (or at least rhymes), we'll be seeing a revolt against the new establishment very soon.
After all, the CCA isn't really much of anything any more.
Quote from: jhkim on June 01, 2021, 01:24:30 AM
As I see it, "Play it however you want" is something players say when they *don't* regard RPGs as therapy or otherwise important, but just as a fun pastime. For example, I might not like how some edition of a game is written. In that case, I don't like it for myself and wouldn't want to play it. If other people play it and like it, though, I don't care and I don't think they're harming themselves or others.
In some ways, yes, but as Pundit pointed out with D&D becoming a tool for indoctrination, the 'you can do no wrong' idea takes on a much more insidious angle.
Remember the Critical Role players who got upset that one of the PCs died thanks to Mercer not fudging the dice to keep them alive? Imagine people like that playing D&D with you. Imagine what they'd do if you played the game as it's supposed to be played, or as it was in 2nd Edition where it states, verbatim: "When a character reaches 0 HP, the character is slain."
Then again, as has been stated before, if someone is that fragile mentally with regards to a harmless game if not life in general, they shouldn't be playing it or able to affect the direction of the product. Sadly though, that Consent Guide and this nu-Ravenloft is a pretty good sign this perversion of D&D as a game won't stop anytime soon.
Quote from: Renegade_Productions on June 01, 2021, 08:49:58 AM
Quote from: jhkim on June 01, 2021, 01:24:30 AM
As I see it, "Play it however you want" is something players say when they *don't* regard RPGs as therapy or otherwise important, but just as a fun pastime. For example, I might not like how some edition of a game is written. In that case, I don't like it for myself and wouldn't want to play it. If other people play it and like it, though, I don't care and I don't think they're harming themselves or others.
In some ways, yes, but as Pundit pointed out with D&D becoming a tool for indoctrination, the 'you can do no wrong' idea takes on a much more insidious angle.
Remember the Critical Role players who got upset that one of the PCs died thanks to Mercer not fudging the dice to keep them alive? Imagine people like that playing D&D with you. Imagine what they'd do if you played the game as it's supposed to be played, or as it was in 2nd Edition where it states, verbatim: "When a character reaches 0 HP, the character is slain."
Then again, as has been stated before, if someone is that fragile mentally with regards to a harmless game if not life in general, they shouldn't be playing it or able to affect the direction of the product. Sadly though, that Consent Guide and this nu-Ravenloft is a pretty good sign this perversion of D&D as a game won't stop anytime soon.
Personally, I dislike killing PCs solely because the dice didn't roll in their favor.
Now, if they do something stupid, well... to quote Niven's
Oath of Fealty, just think of it as evolution in action.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 01, 2021, 08:46:01 AMOn the upshot, if history repeats itself (or at least rhymes), we'll be seeing a revolt against the new establishment very soon.
After all, the CCA isn't really much of anything any more.
It is, just not in the form it was before. SJW cult infestation of comics IS the CCA all over again and its getting worse. Again.
Hopefully the bubble bursts before the next wave of this stupid.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 01, 2021, 08:52:26 AM
Personally, I dislike killing PCs solely because the dice didn't roll in their favor.
Now, if they do something stupid, well... to quote Niven's Oath of Fealty, just think of it as evolution in action.
The Critical Role crowd strikes me as the latter, honestly. And those types drive me nuts.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on June 01, 2021, 08:46:01 AMOn the upshot, if history repeats itself (or at least rhymes), we'll be seeing a revolt against the new establishment very soon.
After all, the CCA isn't really much of anything any more.
Isn't the OSR a revolt against the current establishment within RPGs? It seems like OSR games are going strong and getting good distribution.
From my view, the problem with the CCA wasn't that CCA-compliant comics existed -- it was that it was impossible to publish without the CCA. As a father who raised a comics-loving kid, I appreciated having kid-friendly comics compared to a lot of the grimdark shit that was dominant for a while. But I also like at least some of the darker comics.
The OSR was a fake movement to cash in on WOTCs multiple blunders. THEN by pure chance became a resistance cell against the Forge, GNS and Pundits Swine who were laying the foundations for the new wave of Woke cult. Ron and Co. more or less unified the fractional OSR with their incessant attacks on older styles of play and trying to re-write history to read that Storygaming was the one true way from the start.
Quote from: Omega on June 01, 2021, 12:59:16 PM
The OSR was a fake movement to cash in on WOTCs multiple blunders. THEN by pure chance became a resistance cell against the Forge, GNS and Pundits Swine who were laying the foundations for the new wave of Woke cult. Ron and Co. more or less unified the fractional OSR with their incessant attacks on older styles of play and trying to re-write history to read that Storygaming was the one true way from the start.
What are you saying is the timeline here? I would say that the heyday of The Forge was around 2002 to 2006. By 2006 it was already in decline, and discussion dispersing to other forums. At that time, Pundit's preferred system was True20. Retro-clones like OSRIC were starting out under the Open Gaming License, but I'm not sure the term "OSR" had even been coined yet.
In 2008, WotC debuted 4e - which was a blunder - but it was clearly video-gamish and/or collectible-card-gamish, not storygaming.
I think the OSR started to come together just in the 2010s. In the 2010s, FATE and Powered-by-the-Apocalypse games started to get a strong following, but by that time, Ron Edwards had dropped off the map.
Ron may have become more obscure. But the impact was still present a good while after. Even now theres still little flareups and attempts to try again to co-opt gaming. But its lost alot of its thrust now.
Quote from: Omega on June 01, 2021, 12:59:16 PM
The OSR was a fake movement to cash in on WOTCs multiple blunders. THEN by pure chance became a resistance cell against the Forge, GNS and Pundits Swine who were laying the foundations for the new wave of Woke cult. Ron and Co. more or less unified the fractional OSR with their incessant attacks on older styles of play and trying to re-write history to read that Storygaming was the one true way from the start.
Quote from: jhkim on June 01, 2021, 01:26:30 PM
What are you saying is the timeline here? I would say that the heyday of The Forge was around 2002 to 2006. By 2006 it was already in decline, and discussion dispersing to other forums. At that time, Pundit's preferred system was True20. Retro-clones like OSRIC were starting out under the Open Gaming License, but I'm not sure the term "OSR" had even been coined yet.
In 2008, WotC debuted 4e - which was a blunder - but it was clearly video-gamish and/or collectible-card-gamish, not storygaming.
I think the OSR started to come together just in the 2010s. In the 2010s, FATE and Powered-by-the-Apocalypse games started to get a strong following, but by that time, Ron Edwards had dropped off the map.
Quote from: Omega on June 03, 2021, 11:13:53 AM
Ron may have become more obscure. But the impact was still present a good while after. Even now theres still little flareups and attempts to try again to co-opt gaming. But its lost alot of its thrust now.
I don't disagree that it had continuing impact. But the point is that Ron's GNS crusade was already in the past as the OSR started to pick up steam with the release of 4E. Also, Ron's crusade wasn't political at all - there was nothing woke about it, and indeed plenty that was unwoke in games like Sorcerer. Likewise, Pundit's counter-crusade was much less political at the start, and he at first championed True20 as his preferred system, which is far from old-school.
~2000: WotC releases 3E
~2000-2006: Ron & Co make incessant attacks on older styles of play and trying to re-write history to read that storygaming was the one true way from the start
~2006: Nascent OSR with the release of OSRIC
~2006: Pundit makes attacks on swine including storygaming and Blue Rose, with political overtones, championing True20
~2008: WotC releases 4E
~2009: OSR picks up steam with Swords & Wizardry
In the 2010s, storygaming started to go more mainstream and more political. It abandoned Ron's one true way, and instead adopted more hybrid games like Dungeon World (2012). They supported licensed games like Dresden Files (2010) and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying (2012).
~2014: WotC releases 5E
Over all this time, political conflict has become increasingly important to RPG discussion.
Just based on what I have seen him say on youtube videos about games, I suspect Ron Edwards wouldn't be much of a fan of the new Ravenloft (or old Ravenloft for that matter)
So...libtards without a moral compass made a game without a moral compass?
Shocking!
The balance of "corruption will destroy you eventually" vs. "we needs/wants kewl powerz" is not just interesting storytelling and mythmaking, but it's good game design.
Quote from: Omega on June 03, 2021, 11:13:53 AM
Ron may have become more obscure. But the impact was still present a good while after. Even now there's still little flareups and attempts to try again to co-opt gaming. But its lost a lot of its thrust now.
I think that one thing that he was very influential in doing was making the story gaming nomenclature very pervasive in lingua franca of the hobby. I see on various forums people tossing around terms like 'narrative' 'simulation' 'story' and 'fiction' like free candy.
Although they are probably not using those words in the way he hoped...
We are in the "storytelling system" era 2.0 - Except instead of White Wolf telling everyone about how you can do real "storytelling" with their Vampire RPG - this time it is WOTC telling everyone all about the different stories you can tell playing 5e D&D.
I think it's the critical role influence but these days I see the biggest use of 'story' as being something the GM plans.
Which puts us back to the way gaming was in the 90s really.
Which I'm not sure is all that good a place to be, but it does kind of erase Edwards' influence.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 03, 2021, 08:52:23 PM
Quote from: Omega on June 03, 2021, 11:13:53 AM
Ron may have become more obscure. But the impact was still present a good while after. Even now there's still little flareups and attempts to try again to co-opt gaming. But its lost a lot of its thrust now.
I think that one thing that he was very influential in doing was making the story gaming nomenclature very pervasive in lingua franca of the hobby. I see on various forums people tossing around terms like 'narrative' 'simulation' 'story' and 'fiction' like free candy.
Although they are probably not using those words in the way he hoped...
We are in the "storytelling system" era 2.0 - Except instead of White Wolf telling everyone about how you can do real "storytelling" with their Vampire RPG - this time it is WOTC telling everyone all about the different stories you can tell playing 5e D&D.
We also seem to be in the d20 boom 2.0. D&D is bigger than ever, and everybody is using the OGL to try and get a piece of the pie.
To be fair, D&D is already such a hodgepodge of elements that you can, with sufficient tweaking, play most kinds of fantasy.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on June 03, 2021, 07:01:01 PM
Just based on what I have seen him say on youtube videos about games, I suspect Ron Edwards wouldn't be much of a fan of the new Ravenloft (or old Ravenloft for that matter)
Funny as based on what I saw of his writing for Champions he might like it as it follows more his storytelling ideals in some ways. But he might not like it because its not woke enough.