Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 10, 2023, 10:22:05 AM
At least neo-pagans use it as part of a coherent theology rather than whatever the hell WotC has been using all these years.

   D&D hasn't been theologically coherent since Supplement IV, AFAIK.  And even Gygaxian druids were able to do human sacrifice while only landing on the 'evil edge of neutral.' (Although in fairness, that was back in the days when Law and Chaos were primary and Good and Evil afterthoughts, in that liminal period between the 3-alignment and 9-alignment systems.) 

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 10, 2023, 12:47:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 10, 2023, 10:22:05 AM
At least neo-pagans use it as part of a coherent theology rather than whatever the hell WotC has been using all these years.

   D&D hasn't been theologically coherent since Supplement IV, AFAIK.  And even Gygaxian druids were able to do human sacrifice while only landing on the 'evil edge of neutral.' (Although in fairness, that was back in the days when Law and Chaos were primary and Good and Evil afterthoughts, in that liminal period between the 3-alignment and 9-alignment systems.) 

Indeed.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 10, 2023, 11:58:13 AM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 10, 2023, 11:40:27 AM
Honestly, when I saw this rumour I'm like hooray. WotC, please do this. It will just kick the corpse further into the grave.

The sad thing is, they used the old guys who know game theory as consultants because they can't have moderate or conservatives working at WotC's offices spreading their ideology of loving America and being thankful for what we have.  And then after they got success on the game system they ejected everyone they could who was center left and to the right to allow only ideologically pure leftist nut jobs remain.

Current game theory at WotC is to give the player everything and remove all challenges, because that is how leftists want to live.  Human beings do not want to live like that let alone play a game that simulates that.  6E is adding significantly more to player character abilities over balance.  Then toss in leftwing racist views and newspeak and you have an ideological mess of a game that no one will buy let alone play.

We already had this at Disney destroying Star Wars and Marvel, but the corpse of Disney is still kicking.  Disney is selling ESPN but won't let Star Wars go because they spent too much and they don't want to lose it even though its a dog now.  Hasbro will do the same thing with D&D.  Because WotC got Larian to make their next game based on non-woke 5E and Larian is a competent game studio, Baldur's Gate 4 is a success, Hasbro sees dollar signs now and won't let the corpse of D&D go to someone who can resurrect the brand on hopes of more video game success on D&D IP.  Its not D&D IP, its game company skill.  Look at all the other D&D games, they are purified shit because the game studios are shit.

Same thing for Paradox. They bought that proto-woke mall goth ttrpg that very briefly outsold D&D in the early/mid 1990s, doubled down on the woke stuff, approved a ton of crappy licensed games, and are now acting surprised when the whole house of cards is collapsing. They hired Chinese Room to make their flagship crpg, rather than Obsidian.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 09, 2023, 03:10:08 PM
The only issue with WotC burning D&D down to the ground is they can cause permanent damage to the brand.  Try forming up a game of D&D, but when people hear that name they think "social justice, whackadoo" and they pass.  That is what I see coming our way possibly.

This is not an invalid concern either. Look at the damage done to Gamma World as example where its just a ha-ha funnnnny! game now.

As for the witch, druid, shaman thing.

Called it a few years ago.

Who here is even surprised they finally got around to it? If wotc were not so infatuated with demons theyd be changing those to something stupider than Tanrii and Baatazu and whatever.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 09, 2023, 12:31:53 PM
I can't really bring myself to care. When was the last time anyone gave a fuck about classes like the witch, druid or shaman?

When was the last time anyone gave a fuck about WotC D&D?

Quote from: crkrueger on October 10, 2023, 11:26:25 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 09, 2023, 12:31:53 PM
I can't really bring myself to care. When was the last time anyone gave a fuck about classes like the witch, druid or shaman?

When was the last time anyone gave a fuck about WotC D&D?

Good question. I just checked my purchases on DND Beyond. The last time I bought a product from them was Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden in August 2020. I have a soft spot for anything Norse inspired, even remotely. And I do think it was very well done, we had a lot of fun playing through it.

But if I had any interest in buying anything else they killed it with their rainbow hued woke dreck.

Quote from: Omega on October 10, 2023, 09:08:12 PM
If wotc were not so infatuated with demons theyd be changing those to something stupider than Tanrii and Baatazu and whatever.

Nah, these shows of religious sensitivity are performative and one-sided. "Misunderstood" demons are the perfect symbol for anyone and anything ever oppressed by Christianity, and I can easily imagine pseudo-Christianity is going to be one of the main "approved" bad guy factions in mainstream D&D going forward.

Hey, somebody's got to take the cannon fodder role from the now-protected orcs, and who better than thinly-veiled references to the modern player's family back in Wyoming?

Quote from: Omega on October 10, 2023, 09:03:49 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 09, 2023, 03:10:08 PM
The only issue with WotC burning D&D down to the ground is they can cause permanent damage to the brand.  Try forming up a game of D&D, but when people hear that name they think "social justice, whackadoo" and they pass.  That is what I see coming our way possibly.

This is not an invalid concern either. Look at the damage done to Gamma World as example where its just a ha-ha funnnnny! game now.

What I'm more concerned about it how it might tarnish the OSR by association. There are numerous fantasy ttrpgs (e.g. Castles & Crusades, Swords & Wizardry, Basic Fantasy) and some post-apocalypse ttrpgs (e.g. Mutant Future) to serve as alternatives, but that won't matter if nobody wants to touch them.

What we really need is a decentralized ttrpg market where you aren't held hostage by big publishers' IPs that inevitably get run into the ground like we saw with Hollyweird. Long-running IPs like Star Trek, Star Wars, Marvel, DC, Aliens vs Predator, Terminator, etc. are all poison now. Potentially good IPs like TSR's Dark Matter, Star Drive, Gamma World, etc are dead and forgotten because they're locked in copyright jail. This is why I've opted to spend effort on writing ttrpg settings recycling ideas I liked and releasing my work into public domain so that nobody has control over it. It's worked out great for the Cthulhu mythos, so why not use it everywhere?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on October 11, 2023, 06:43:29 AM
Nah, these shows of religious sensitivity are performative and one-sided. "Misunderstood" demons are the perfect symbol for anyone and anything ever oppressed by Christianity, and I can easily imagine pseudo-Christianity is going to be one of the main "approved" bad guy factions in mainstream D&D going forward.

Hey, somebody's got to take the cannon fodder role from the now-protected orcs, and who better than thinly-veiled references to the modern player's family back in Wyoming?

   My only question is if WotC or Paizo gets to this first in the main market (although one could argue that Green Ronin beat them to it with Jarzon in Blue Rose ), but on a related note, someone on EN World just claimed: "WotC has been working to separate the Cleric from religion for a while now." Being 7-10 years out of date on D&D, is this true?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 11, 2023, 01:39:18 PM
but on a related note, someone on EN World just claimed: "WotC has been working to separate the Cleric from religion for a while now." Being 7-10 years out of date on D&D, is this true?

To some extent. In their efforts to make the healer role more appealing they've disseminated more and more flavor text indicating that clerics can draw their power from almost anything, including abstract concepts that have no doctrines or practices associated with them.

Honestly, disregarding any ideological motives, I think it's a good move. In a generic fantasy setting, the role of 'healer' should have as little mandatory setting baggage as 'warrior', and its up to each individual healer or warrior to decide how pious he is or if he is part of a clergy.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on October 11, 2023, 01:54:34 PM
Honestly, disregarding any ideological motives, I think it's a good move. In a generic fantasy setting, the role of 'healer' should have as little mandatory setting baggage as 'warrior', and its up to each individual healer or warrior to decide how pious he is or if he is part of a clergy.

   I agree, for various reasons, although I think it does have the unpleasant side effect of making it easier for WotC to paint all religion as evil. But abusus non tollit usum, and clerics have been a poor match for priests since the beginning--2nd Edition was the only edition that even came close to squaring that circle.

Third edition contained language separating the cleric from the need to worship a deity.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 11, 2023, 01:39:18 PMbut on a related note, someone on EN World just claimed: "WotC has been working to separate the Cleric from religion for a while now." Being 7-10 years out of date on D&D, is this true?

In bits and pieces. 5e and possibly before that has been gradually distancing the religious classes from religion.

Paladins are the big one right out the gate. They get their power from oaths now.

Think Clerics got some sentence saying they can gain power from belief in an ideal rather than a god.

I don't understand why they can't just adopt a pagan Indo-European religion for this? Or replace Christian references with Ancient Egyptian paganism, Zoroastrianism, and/or Afro-Caribbean syncretism, and/or folk Catholicism? If they hate Christianity, then there are other options to preserve the structure derived from medieval Christianity.

D&D theology right now is a nonsense hodgepodge that doesn't map to any real theology that has ever existed. The closest is probably the collective Arthurian mythos, but that's a stretch.

The combination of class bloat and niche protection has resulted in increasingly nonsensical distinctions and worldbuilding. I'm sick of it.

Pick a coherent theology and interpret everything in terms of that. Don't half-ass it you hacks!

Quote from: Corolinth on October 11, 2023, 03:14:18 PM
Third edition contained language separating the cleric from the need to worship a deity.

It did, but it contained a lot more language talking about how they worship a deity.

Quote from: 3.5 PHBSome clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship.

It then goes on to discuss a cleric dedicated to "good and law".

In practice this is setting dependent.  Forgotten Realms, for instance, separates magic into "the art" and "the power", and it's pretty clear that clerics can't go worshiping goodness itself in that setting. But in Greyhawk you can. What happens if your cleric from Greyhawk ends up in the Realms?  I've no idea, but generally clerics can get screwed from being too far from their home plane, so who knows.  Obviously, in any custom game, the DM decides whether this works.

It's not an idea that easily spread out from there though, and 5e doesn't have this text.

The two main approaches are to remove the need to worship a god from the cleric (a class otherwise totally built around the concept), or to create a different class completely. So far they haven't really gone for either of these.