Quote from: RPGPundit;640391OH! Its "enticement" and not "Seduction"... well then, that's just fine! Clearly, "Enticing" a 9 year old girl is certainly OK.

In the context that the word's used here, yes. It's still the system's general term for gaining an emotional hold over someone, not "a sex roll" or something specific to that particular situation: in much the same way, if the section instead referred to Mao helping those who "defeat her in combat", that wouldn't necessarily involve any kind of fighting because "combat" in this case covers all opposed actions, for example trying to influence, outperform, or hinder another character in any way. In the scenario, this means swaying the ghost to your side by providing a reason to stay on Earth. And yes, these discussions always conveniently forget that she is a ghost from over half a century ago who uses her supernatural powers to guard the mansion from intruders, including the PCs.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639957Besides, Moonrise Kingdom comes highly recommended by the library, and a quick look at their database shows nine current reservations left on the DVD even now.

Its an awesome Wes Anderson film about two kids who don't fit in anywhere, falling in love.
Since neither of them are sodomized with broomsticks or have their throats raped, nor are they being played by 34 year old men, nor is "sex" a central theme of the story, I really don't know what its doing in this conversation.

Its pretty freaking obvious that games like "hot guys (that is man/boy love) making out" is intended to put a big emphasis on the sexual aspects, trying to pretend that this is somehow the same as a Wes Anderson film is ridiculous.

For starters, Anderson is a fucking genius, while Baker, Andy K, Lehman et. al. are pseudo-intellectual morally-bankrupt laughably-untalented posers who mistake offensiveness for cleverness.

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640414In the context that the word's used here, yes. It's still the system's general term for gaining an emotional hold over someone, not "a sex roll" or something specific to that particular situation:

Right, so was it an "enticement" or "Seduction" roll that was done to convince the 9 year old maid to wear a transparent maid uniform?

RPGPundit

Here's what I don't get.  Well, one of the things I don't get about this whole mess.  Even if you don't play the game as encouraged by raping kids, and instead only have the PCs as adults, it seems a typical session (as I linked to in the other thread to youtube actual play events) often results in graphic sexual scenarios.  And this is the part that throws me off, because the same person doing this in a game of Maid:

"I rub my huge breasts up and down his face..."

is also the same person on various forums who has said this:

"You checked out my boobs at a con*?  That's fucking rape man!  You're raping me!  You just don't see it because of your privilege."

That seems pretty hypocritical to me.



*because you wore a shirt under your corset that said "BOOBIES" in large print.  At the Con I was just at, there seemed to be a lot of women who wore shirts like that, or ones with a set of d20s with the 20 showing right where the boobs are and the word "Natural" right under them.  There was a lot of clothing like that.

Didn't I ask you if neck fucking a decapitated cabin boy was an in-book example of play and found out instead it was an example of play from some fucknuts at a convention?

Just like stupid, can't really stop creepy fucknuts from messing with whatever is put out there. Not even a cigar is benign in the hands of a US president...

Does it "encourage" such play and obscene description in a public place? Basically, does it encourage fucknuts to be fucknuts? Well, I have no idea as I don't own or read these books. But if jackasses at a Con are enough to indict... then people complaining about WW and Sabbat, Black Spiral Dancers, LARP, et al., and TSR/WotC D&D with evil alignments available, tomb raiding, and humanoid genocide, etc. might gladly jump into the same fray.

Things like a Something Awful exposé of interior content of FATAL or Maid help frame the discussion about what's being declared and why it's not okay (why oh why must I have to type that out...). But quoting jackass consumers while in public, meh, I can get plenty of that embarrassing stupidity at the local sports bar. Still speaks nothing inherently of the game. Quote this Guys on Guys game or let it be.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640451Didn't I ask you if neck fucking a decapitated cabin boy was an in-book example of play and found out instead it was an example of play from some fucknuts at a convention?

Just like stupid, can't really stop creepy fucknuts from messing with whatever is put out there. Not even a cigar is benign in the hands of a US president...

Does it "encourage" such play and obscene description in a public place? Basically, does it encourage fucknuts to be fucknuts? Well, I have no idea as I don't own or read these books. But if jackasses at a Con are enough to indict... then people complaining about WW and Sabbat, Black Spiral Dancers, LARP, et al., and TSR/WotC D&D with evil alignments available, tomb raiding, and humanoid genocide, etc. might gladly jump into the same fray.

Things like a Something Awful exposé of interior content of FATAL or Maid help frame the discussion about what's being declared and why it's not okay (why oh why must I have to type that out...). But quoting jackass consumers while in public, meh, I can get plenty of that embarrassing stupidity at the local sports bar. Still speaks nothing inherently of the game. Quote this Guys on Guys game or let it be.

I think I get what you're trying to say.  I don't have a copy of Hot Guys Making Out in front of me to quote.  but the cover was a half naked adult man looking at the reader in what appeared to be anger while embracing a 10ish year old naked boy who was peeking out of the arms of the adult in fear.  Doesn't take a genius to put together that image with the name of the title to figure out what the game is about.

Quote from: RPGPundit;640434Its an awesome Wes Anderson film about two kids who don't fit in anywhere, falling in love.
Since neither of them are sodomized with broomsticks or have their throats raped, nor are they being played by 34 year old men, nor is "sex" a central theme of the story, I really don't know what its doing in this conversation.

That was a counterpoint to the earlier claim about G x B (which, by the way, looks more like a party game or a freeform exercise than an RPG) that even dating sexualizes underage characters to a degree that makes it inappropriate for gaming. Clearly, I disagree: not only are dating concerns a logical part of life for teenage characters, but there are perfectly respectable dating games out there which in no way involve sex. And no, I wouldn't consider a goodnight kiss "a sexual situation", or start worrying about whether the person to make that move is "dominating" the other.

As for that "broomstick sodomy" comment, it's about as accurate as describing the quidditch matches in Rowling's books as Harry Potter getting sodomized with a Nimbus 2000. There may well be fanfic of that somewhere on the Internet, but it wasn't in Maid even before the later re-editing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;640440Right, so was it an "enticement" or "Seduction" roll that was done to convince the 9 year old maid to wear a transparent maid uniform?

Nope. For one thing, the seduction mechanic was added as an option in a later supplement: it didn't even exist at the time when the core booklet with the first replay was published. For another, the uniform was decided by that maid's player at chargen: this particular roll on the colour chart explicitly gives a choice between "Transparent" or "Rainbow".

The seduction roll in itself doesn't really do anything. Rather, you may attempt it under the right circumstances in order to establish a relationship with someone else. But convincing others would typically fall under the Cunning attribute.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640454That was a counterpoint to the earlier claim about G x B (which, by the way, looks more like a party game or a freeform exercise than an RPG) that even dating sexualizes underage characters to a degree that makes it inappropriate for gaming. Clearly, I disagree: not only are dating concerns a logical part of life for teenage characters, but there are perfectly respectable dating games out there which in no way involve sex. And no, I wouldn't consider a goodnight kiss "a sexual situation", or start worrying about whether the person to make that move is "dominating" the other.
.

Here's what you are continually choosing to ignore in your desperate attempt to excuse your NAMBLA behavior.  Yes, dating is natural for teenagers.  But most of those games?  They're designed for 16+ age groups.  A game about kids designed where kids aren't allowed to play it?  Get it now?  That's a huge red flag right there.  If you have an age limit of 16+, that heavily infers mature content.  Again, in a game about kids.

I don't have a problem if 12 year olds are playing a game where their characters are 12 year olds looking for dates.  I have a problem with these guys (the creators):



playing as 12 year girls/boys -and/or- targeting 12 year girls/boys in a mature themed game.  That just screams 'pedo" all over it, and the fact that no matter how many people are telling you it's fucked up, you just don't get it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640451Didn't I ask you if neck fucking a decapitated cabin boy was an in-book example of play and found out instead it was an example of play from some fucknuts at a convention?

Yes, an example of play the game's author found totally awesome, and defended.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640462Yes, dating is natural for teenagers.  But most of those games?  They're designed for 16+ age groups.  A game about kids designed where kids aren't allowed to play it?  Get it now?  That's a huge red flag right there.  If you have an age limit of 16+, that heavily infers mature content.  Again, in a game about kids.

Determining age ratings for tabletop RPGs is tricky (at a guess most would fall into the "older teens" category), but I can certainly think of quite a few which are "about kids but not for kids", without there being anything suspicious about it. Monsters and Other Childish Things and World of Darkness: Innocents spring instantly to mind.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640454That was a counterpoint to the earlier claim about G x B (which, by the way, looks more like a party game or a freeform exercise than an RPG) that even dating sexualizes underage characters to a degree that makes it inappropriate for gaming.

Because its two 35 year old men pretending to be teenagers dating and being very interested about the sex lives of teenage characters.  So yes.
Its like the difference between why Romeo and Juliet is acceptable, while a guy writing fanfiction porn where he imagines a proxy of himself getting it on with a Disney tween-show-star is not. Trying to pretend these are the same things is retarded, just like trying to pretend that Maid or Panty Explosion or "hot guys making out" are the same thing as a Buffy RPG game is retarded.

QuoteNope. For one thing, the seduction mechanic was added as an option in a later supplement: it didn't even exist at the time when the core booklet with the first replay was published. For another, the uniform was decided by that maid's player at chargen: this particular roll on the colour chart explicitly gives a choice between "Transparent" or "Rainbow".

I see, so in Maid you neither have to seduce nor entice preteen characters to wear transparent outfits. Good to know.

Oddly enough, the cover for Hot Guys Making Out doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

The game, yes, the cover, no.

Quote from: Planet Algol;640479Oddly enough, the cover for Hot Guys Making Out doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

The game, yes, the cover, no.

It was only at the convention.  And it looked like it was a quick local print job.  So I wouldn't expect it would be online.  Yet.  I sort of wish it were, because it really helps set the context here.  As if the description wasn't bad enough.

*Edit*  Ok, let's see if this works



I was a bit mistaken.  the kid isn't naked.  It's still super creepy in the context of the art and title.  I thought it was a woman at first, but they are both male.  Also in the photo is the cover to G x G (girl on girl), where it should be noted that the cover was criticized because the girls looked too old.

Yeah, that's what I stared at all weekend, and watched them fly off the shelves.

Quote from: Planet Algol;640479Oddly enough, the cover for Hot Guys Making Out doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

The game, yes, the cover, no.

Strange but true, I just checked. Maybe google yanked it as paedophilia, they won't display any images like that. I just hope I haven't been tagged by looking for it. Meanwhile, check out this terse paragraph which is the entirety of the game's description on the creator's website:

QuoteHot Guys Making Out is a yaoi role-playing game, set in the Spanish Civil War, in which a tormented nobleman and his young ward attempt to resist their forbidden love for each other, and fail.

If you would like a copy of it e-mail me at taogames@gmail.com and we’ll work something out.

Creeptastic.

Quote from: RPGPundit;640478Because its two 35 year old men pretending to be teenagers dating and being very interested about the sex lives of teenage characters.  So yes.
Its like the difference between why Romeo and Juliet is acceptable, while a guy writing fanfiction porn where he imagines a proxy of himself getting it on with a Disney tween-show-star is not. Trying to pretend these are the same things is retarded, just like trying to pretend that Maid or Panty Explosion or "hot guys making out" are the same thing as a Buffy RPG game is retarded.

Maid isn't about teenagers, although nothing prevents you from playing them, and the "meido" concept is more about cuteness and romance than sex in any case. Panty Explosion is about high school girls, but not (despite the title) about their sex lives, and nothing prevents you from playing students on their last year. I still don't have any clear idea what Hot Guys Making Out is about.

Hmm. A thought exercise... As I recall, Teenagers From Outer Space discourages actual sex on the grounds that keeping the characters frustrated is funnier than "going all the way". How would you feel about PCs dating in it?

Quote from: RPGPundit;640478I see, so in Maid you neither have to seduce nor entice preteen characters to wear transparent outfits. Good to know.

Actually, both the maid's age and the uniform's transparency came down entirely to that player's personal choice, not the game itself. A 25-year-old maid with a rainbow-coloured uniform would have been every bit as valid.