TheRPGSite

Tonight I set up my booth at Gamestorm, and it appears I'm surrounded by booths that focus on storygames (including the double size booth in front of mine that is big into Panty Explosion (?).  Let's see if I can survive until Sunday

:)

Bonne chance, and take lots of photos!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;638985...big into Panty Explosion (?)...

This phrase conjures horrible images in the mind's eye that are better left unseen by mere mortals.

Regardless, best of luck.

Good Luck!

Best of luck.  :worship:

I'll have to find me some OSR folks to deprog.  I'm just hoping there won't be 35 year old neckbeards wearing school girl costumes at their both I have to look at all day ;)

Good luck, man!

What is Gamestorm and what are you selling?

Quote from: Spinachcat;639076What is Gamestorm and what are you selling?

Local tabletop gaming convention (http://www.gamestorm.org/).  And I'm selling games, naturally ;)

May your games inspire fascination, your pockets run full of monies, and your room be full of lovers!

Best of luck! :D

Bon chance, mon ami! :)

Panty Explosion?   WTF is that!?  Sounds like a Porno shop or something. :)

Panty Explosion?   WTF is that!?  Sounds like a Porno shop or something. :)

Reminds me of where I use to live, we had a Tattoo Parlor right next door to a Sex Toy Shop, I always told everyone that's were you go to get "Screwed and Tattooed", LOL...Sorry just remembered that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;638985Tonight I set up my booth at Gamestorm,

Cool.

Quoteand it appears I'm surrounded by booths that focus on storygames

Awesome.

Quote(including the double size booth in front of mine that is big into Panty Explosion (?).

That's great to hear. Panty Explosion, regretful name notwithstanding, is a pretty awesome game. Glad to see it's getting some love.

QuoteLet's see if I can survive until Sunday

Yeah, gaming overload sometimes gets to me at conventions, too. Have fun!

Quote from: flyingcircus;639173Panty Explosion?   WTF is that!?  Sounds like a Porno shop or something. :)

That's the "psychic schoolgirl adventure game" by Jake Richmond, in which you play Japanese schoolgirls (some with psychic powers, some not) who compete for popularity and pursue their personal goals while trying to overcome the challenges posed by a "Demon" (really anything from a schoolyard bully to a mythical monster to a government conspiracy). The second edition, dubbed "Panty Explosion Perfect", is significantly lighter in both mechanics and tone than the original, and more manga-style in presentation.

The title's basically a marketing gimmick supposed to evoke the "word salad" tendency common in, say, anime. Like the cover of another schoolgirl game, Hellcats and Hockeysticks, that can admittedly end up giving the wrong impression.

The character sheet from PEP, with reminders for the basic rules, looks like this:

(http://atarashigames.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/student-record.jpg)

What the fuck?!?! I'm fine with panty explosions when they involve adults.

 Creepy shit.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639452That's the "psychic schoolgirl adventure game" by Jake Richmond, in which you play Japanese schoolgirls (some with psychic powers, some not) who compete for popularity and pursue their personal goals while trying to overcome the challenges posed by a "Demon" (really anything from a schoolyard bully to a mythical monster to a government conspiracy). The second edition, dubbed "Panty Explosion Perfect", is significantly lighter in both mechanics and tone than the original, and more manga-style in presentation.

The title's basically a marketing gimmick supposed to evoke the "word salad" tendency common in, say, anime. Like the cover of another schoolgirl game, Hellcats and Hockeysticks, that can admittedly end up giving the wrong impression.

The character sheet from PEP, with reminders for the basic rules, looks like this:

(http://atarashigames.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/student-record.jpg)

Oh for fucks sake.

Quote from: Planet Algol;639463What the fuck?!?! I'm fine with panty explosions when they involve adults.

 Creepy shit.

Richmond actually did a series of "I want to try PE... but I'd rather play X" promo pages for reskinning the game to different settings. See here (http://atarashigames.wordpress.com/2011/04/).

This is really not helping the "indie anime/manga prepubescent girl rpg crowd don't have unpleasant pedo undercurrents" arguments in the least...

QuoteThe title's basically a marketing gimmick supposed to evoke the "word salad" tendency common in, say, anime

Bull Fucking Shit.

I know what a panty explosion is. We all do. It's not a random world salad phrase. And if it is indeed word salad, it reveals plenty about the person that came up with that name considering the context.

I'm firmly pro-panty explosions.... ....when it involves consenting adults.

How the fuck does this shit fly under the radar?

Quote from: Planet Algol;639508I know what a panty explosion is. We all do. It's not a random world salad phrase. And if it is indeed word salad, it reveals plenty about the person that came up with that name considering the context.

That would be Emily Care Boss, as I recall, who'd at the time just published Breaking the Ice (a two-player game about a couple on three romantic dates). The reasoning went, if memory serves, that the title combines two elements from Asian "psychic schoolgirl" movies, panty shots and explosions, in a way that's not exactly intuitive.

That's been a divisive title from the start. "Panty Explosion" does seem to attract attention so in that sense it's an understandable marketing decision, but on the other hand, it does a relatively poor job of representing the game itself. There was talk about renaming a while ago, but Richmond apparently decided against it.

the good news is that despite the material, the people at that booth don't seem to be any more creepy than average.  The bad news is my helpers had to back out, which means no demos being run which means I'm very bored at my booth.  Maybe I'll check out their other games for sale, like Hot Guys Making Out, or G+G, which seems to be a game Japanese teen girls.  Don't know anything about it other than someone made a comment about one of the girls on the cover looking too old.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639528...schoolgirl... ...panty shots....

And of course you don't see WHAT'S SO FUCKING CREEPY ABOUT THIS COMBINATION.

Fuck You.

Fuck Off, just Fuck Right Off you fucking creep.

And stay the fuck away from children.

so I guess G+G is an RPG were 4 players play the roles of teenage girls through a bunch of dating scenarios. It's a 6×9 pamphlet of about 25 pages for $10.  And it's almost sold out.  WTF.  This isn't an anime convention.  Sort of depressing that something like that is flying off the shelves, but something like my Gamers against Cancer stuff (where all profits go to cancer research) isn't being touched.. It makes me think something is seriously wrong with people.  Not so much because they aren't interested in my stuff, but because a game where you play as a teenage girl dating is so popular.  And maybe I'm cynical, but I can't see where a bunch of 30 something guys playing as girls dating is exactly innocent

Quote from: Sacrosanct;639558so I guess G+G is an RPG were 4 players play the roles of teenage girls through a bunch of dating scenarios. It's a 6×9 pamphlet of about 25 pages for $10.  And it's almost sold out.  WTF.  This isn't an anime convention.  Sort of depressing that something like that is flying off the shelves, but something like my Gamers against Cancer stuff (where all profits go to cancer research) isn't being touched.

This thread is depressing/creepy as fuck.

Quote from: Planet Algol;639548And of course you don't see WHAT'S SO FUCKING CREEPY ABOUT THIS COMBINATION.

Creepy or not, that's utterly ubiquitous in anime, particularly the shonen variety marketed for teenage boys, not some quirk of fetish porn which would be more in keeping with your reaction. But that's also why PE was a misleading title especially for the first edition: the game didn't particularly resemble the kind of comedy that it might have brought to mind.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639563Creepy or not, that's utterly ubiquitous in anime

Only if you go looking for it. There are vast amounts of anime that don't sexualise minors, or even involve minors. Worth noting at this point is that the pervasive attitude in Japan towards thirty something guys who are into anime is somewhat akin to that towards people who keep their dead parents under their bed.

So yes, creepy as fuck.

Quote from: The Traveller;639565Only if you go looking for it. There are vast amounts of anime that don't sexualise minors, or even involve minors. Worth noting at this point is that the pervasive attitude in Japan towards thirty something guys who are into anime is somewhat akin to that towards people who keep their dead parents under their bed.

You are not wrong, although from what I hear, that attitude applies specifically to anime rather than manga, even when one is based on the other. I did mention shonen in particular because that's where the fanservice is the most prominent. Panty shots on teenage girls show up everywhere from Astro Boy to One Piece.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639568You are not wrong, although from what I hear, that attitude applies specifically to anime rather than manga, even when one is based on the other. I did mention shonen in particular because that's where the fanservice is the most prominent. Panty shots on teenage girls show up everywhere from Astro Boy to One Piece.

I can't claim any expertise on the matter, however you in particular seem to show up in every thread to defend this crap. I suppose it was inevitable that the exhibitionist streak which some people are afflicted with meant it was eventually going to leak into some RPGs but yeah, dead parents under the bed.

I mean you do realise we're looking at this and thinking 'paedophile' right?

This piece of shit obviously thrives on the negative attention.

I'd just ignore his sadsack horseshit, but I don't want to encourage via tolerance this creepy pedo crap.

Quote from: The Traveller;639571I mean you do realise we're looking at this and thinking 'paedophile' right?

As far as I can tell, a considerable number of posters around here will almost inevitably leap to those suspicions about anyone who's played an underage PC, and definitely if the game involves anything romantic. So frankly, I'm not overly concerned about some "only a pervert would run Sailor Moon RPG" comments. It simply goes to show how poorly they know me.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639576As far as I can tell, a considerable number of posters around here will almost inevitably leap to those suspicions about anyone who's played an underage PC, and definitely if the game involves anything romantic. So frankly, I'm not overly concerned about some "only a pervert would run Sailor Moon RPG" comments. It simply goes to show how poorly they know me.

I can see this isn't sinking in. It's the sexualisation that is the problem, and a dating game is by its nature sexual, to say nothing of your ludicrous defence of 'maid' and its fellow travellers. You aren't evangelising an art form here, what you bring down on your own head is richly deserved.

My advice, and it's the last I'll give you, is to find some other topic to wax loquacious about.

Quote from: The Traveller;639578I can see this isn't sinking in. It's the sexualisation that is the problem, and a dating game is by its nature sexual, to say nothing of your ludicrous defence of 'maid' and its fellow travellers. You aren't evangelising an art form here, what you bring down on your own head is richly deserved.

If teens dating doesn't pose a problem in YA fiction, why on earth would the situation somehow be different in RPGs? By that logic, even for instance the currently so popular paranormal romance genre with teenage protagonists is wrong. A Buffy scenario that revolves around a double date? That must be an abomination.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639583If teens dating doesn't pose a problem in YA fiction, why on earth would the situation somehow be different in RPGs? By that logic, even for instance the currently so popular paranormal romance genre with teenage protagonists is wrong. A Buffy scenario that revolves around a double date? That must be an abomination.

And you can't see any difference between a Buffy episode and a 'schoolgirl panty explosion'. You really are fucked up.

Quote from: The Traveller;639584And you can't see any difference between a Buffy episode and a 'schoolgirl panty explosion'. You really are fucked up.

And you still seem to be under the impression that Panty Explosion has anything at all to do with panties. It doesn't. It especially doesn't have anything to do with panties exploding, whatever that means(I'm not going to Urban Dictionary it). It's just a psychic schoolgirl pseudo soap opera thing with some mystery, and possibly some horror elements if the group wants. Like Buffy or Charmed or something, but with more Japanese culture influence.

"This Panty Explosion has Nothing to do with Panties"

Bullshit, dishonest argument.

what's gonna happen is some sick fuck like him is going to get busted for child molestation and they'll find all this RPG material along with his child porn, and instead of thinking that this is just one sicko, they'll say rpgs are a gateway to deviant and even criminal behavior. We've seen this party-party before. That's why rpgs like maid should never be acceptable among our own community.  We shouldn't wait for disaster to happen first

Quote from: The Traveller;639584And you can't see any difference between a Buffy episode and a 'schoolgirl panty explosion'. You really are fucked up.

You do realize that there's a Buffy RPG, don't you? And the set-up from the show actually is the sort of thing that wouldn't be out of place in PE, aside from the focus on playing girls rather than boys.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;639586And you still seem to be under the impression that Panty Explosion has anything at all to do with panties. It doesn't. It especially doesn't have anything to do with panties exploding, whatever that means(I'm not going to Urban Dictionary it). It's just a psychic schoolgirl pseudo soap opera thing with some mystery, and possibly some horror elements if the group wants. Like Buffy or Charmed or something, but with more Japanese culture influence.

The previous comments were directed towards an individual who has attempted to excuse maid's 'seduce a nine year old' with translation error, despite the fact that the translator is a native English speaker. In that context I do indeed find him fucked up. Ghost in the Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist, Black Lagoon, all completely devoid of the underwear of minors, and yet some people gravitate towards the nasty stuff and THEN feel obliged to evangelise their proclivities.

Lawncrappers all.

Quote from: Planet Algol;639587Bullshit, dishonest argument.

If you can demonstrate it, do so. Otherwise, your opinion means nothing.

Quote from: The Traveller;639590attempted to excuse maid's 'seduce a nine year old' with translation error, despite the fact that the translator is a native English speaker.

Wait, that was actually in Maid? Like for real? Yeah, . . . that's messed up for sure.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;639593Wait, that was actually in Maid? Like for real? Yeah, . . . that's messed up for sure.

Apparently, I saw a screengrab. I think the thread was "Something Awful is good for something for a change" or words to that effect if you want to look it up. It's a coin toss which is more messed up, producing it or defending it.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;639593Wait, that was actually in Maid? Like for real? Yeah, . . . that's messed up for sure.

not only that, but in the "how to play the game" example, there were no fewer than two graphic examples of a 26 year old sexually assaulting a 12 year old and a 13 year old.  Grimgents excuse?. "you don't HAVE to play that way, so nothing is wrong with the game

Quote from: Sacrosanct;639595not only that, but in the "how to play the game" example, there were no fewer than two graphic examples of a 26 year old sexually assaulting a 12 year old and a 13 year old.  Grimgents excuse?. "you don't HAVE to play that way, so nothing is wrong with the game

Ugh, I'm now glad that I didn't buy Maid back when I had the chance. Just gross.

PE doesn't have any of that kind of stuff, though. Just an unfortunate name.

Quote from: The Traveller;639590The previous comments were directed towards an individual who has attempted to excuse maid's 'seduce a nine year old' with translation error, despite the fact that the translator is a native English speaker.

"Seduction" in that case isn't so much an error as a possibly flawed choice of words, in that it's nowhere near as literal as it might sound out of context. Simply put, in Maid it's the term for overwhelming someone emotionally so that they'll do what you ask as long as the relationship remains intact: charming them to your side, essentially. "Enticement" would apparently have been the strictest translation.

Quote from: The Traveller;639590Ghost in the Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist, Black Lagoon, all completely devoid of the underwear of minors, and yet some people gravitate towards the nasty stuff and THEN feel obliged to evangelise their proclivities.

Winry in FMA does wind up shown in skimpy clothing for fanservice, though, while Black Lagoon features the "fan disservice" (to use the tvtropism) twins who seem to have been twisted by sexual abuse, as well as the mini-maid who harbours tender feelings towards her master.

Japan won the war, folks, just like The South. We'll all have to cope now...
Discuss.
:cheerleader:

(or we could all, y'know, go back on topic? :p)

Quote from: GeekEclectic;639591If you can demonstrate it, do so. Otherwise, your opinion means nothing.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;639593Wait, that was actually in Maid? Like for real? Yeah, . . . that's messed up for sure.

I think you really need to research some of the shit you are defending here. For your own good.

so G+G apparently stands for "girl on girl", because hey, who doesn't want to play a RPG where you're a 13 year old girl having sexual relations with other children?  And I was mistaken about "Hot Guys Making Out". I thought the cover was a naked 20 year old embracing a naked women.  Nope, that's a young boy he's embracing.

Seriously, the fact that these exist and are sold openly, let alone are very popular, makes me question if this is a hobby I should be part of any more

The homosexuality doesn't bother me so much as the youth of the characters does in the games.  That middle-aged guys want to play this just tells me that I don't want those middle-aged guys in any of my games.

Quote from: jeff37923;639704The homosexuality doesn't bother me so much as the youth of the characters does in the games.  That middle-aged guys want to play this just tells me that I don't want those middle-aged guys in any of my games.

I don't care about the homosexual aspect either.  But role-playing sexual scenarios as kids, regardless of orientation, is fucked up

Quote from: Sacrosanct;639706I don't care about the homosexual aspect either.  But role-playing sexual scenarios as kids, regardless of orientation, is fucked up

Agreed.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;639703Seriously, the fact that these exist and are sold openly, let alone are very popular, makes me question if this is a hobby I should be part of any more

It's not unlikely that the coagulation of fans you saw were more drawn by the cash in hand nature of conventions, I'd wager not a one of them paid with a credit card. This stuff isn't sold in any FLGS I've ever come across.

How many goddamn pedo-ish/-esque rpgs are there?

FUCK!

Quote from: The Traveller;639714It's not unlikely that the coagulation of fans you saw were more drawn by the cash in hand nature of conventions, I'd wager not a one of them paid with a credit card. This stuff isn't sold in any FLGS I've ever come across.

most of them have that, "I just printed this in my garage" appearance, so you're probably right.  However, the IPR booth has been selling a lot of Maid

Quote from: Planet Algol;639717How many goddamn pedo-ish/-esque rpgs are there?

FUCK!

More than I ever realized, apparently.
...and that's just sad. :banghead:

I was fortunate to have dinner last month with a group of writers (a group with a wide range of success and failure) and we were talking about the oddness of TV teen sexuality.

There have been many TV shows about teens over the years, many of them with characters designed to be sexually desirable to the audience. Almost always, these characters are played by actresses who are older than 18, often over 21.

Vampire Diaries, Veronica Mars, Glee, etc..

Its a strange dictomy in society. You can be an adult fan of one of these shows, watch because you are attracted to (perhaps titillated by) a character in high school and its all good because the actress is legal age. It's odd.

Also, YA literature is often quite sexual, dealing with adolescent feelings and their romantic fumblings. But YA lit has certainly crossed over into adult mainstream reading (aka Harry Potter, Twilight, etc) so there isn't a social stigma of an adult reading what would have been a "kid's book" years ago.

The fans of the books or TV shows are not reviled as "pedos", but it is interesting if the same concept is translated into a RPG, it is seen as inappropriate.

Is it the presumed age of the players? Would it be fine if teen girls played Maid or Panty Explosion? What about teen boys? Is it gender and age issues of the players that make these games seem "pedo"?

We know there are many "dating sims" as video games, and I wonder if we will see a game akin to Maid or PE become an online option. I wonder what the general response will be? Will video gamers see this as "pedo" or just another "dating sim" game with psychic and supernatural elements?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;639742most of them have that, "I just printed this in my garage" appearance, so you're probably right.  However, the IPR booth has been selling a lot of Maid

Honestly, I'm in the wrong jurisdiction to do it myself, but I don't know why people aren't writing complaints to law enforcement about the artwork and the possible use of these things for grooming. Let your taxes do the work, I say.

It's akin to Spinachcat's comment, but Yaoi (gay) manga often works on the butch v. femme dichotomy trope. The reserved pretty twink meets the forward lusty butch and fantasy explodes. Age difference is usually not that large at all, with both usually out of high school and often with kids already married or something. The things I learned of subculture from anime/anthromorph fangirls...

Anyway, there's a chance that Guy on Guy might be working off that trope and that one is projecting one is a young boy. Could be just a twenty-something twink? They exist, too.

Doesn't really matter. With Twilight moms and Bieber moms and Awkward and Teenwolf and 90210 and Ashley twins legal countdown website and underaged lingerie fashion models and boys on display Abercrombie and on and on, our culture doesn't really have much to stand on in comparison. Of course that's why there had to be a law.

As communities go, tabletop gamerdom is mercifully far tamer than pop culture.

Quote from: Spinachcat;639812There have been many TV shows about teens over the years, many of them with characters designed to be sexually desirable to the audience. Almost always, these characters are played by actresses who are older than 18, often over 21.

Incidentally, the TV Tropes entry on this "Dawson Casting" points out various reasons why that is so, including the fanservice factor but also the scarcity of properly competent teenage actors. It later goes on to remark: "The Creek was not the worst offender. That title might well go to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where the tenth-graders (16-year-olds) were played by Nicholas Brendon as Xander (25), Alyson Hannigan as Willow (22) and Charisma Carpenter (26, making Carpenter the same age as her teacher played by Robia LaMorte)."

Quote from: Planet Algol;639717How many goddamn pedo-ish/-esque rpgs are there?

FUCK!

Quote from: Novastar;639744More than I ever realized, apparently.
...and that's just sad. :banghead:

Agreed. :(

What shocks me is the way some people casually handwave the pedo stuff with "because Japan," "because Anime" and variations thereof. The fact that this sort of retort is, has become, or is becoming main stream worries me a great deal.

Quote from: Benoist;639860What shocks me is the way some people casually handwave the pedo stuff with "because Japan," "because Anime" and variations thereof. The fact that this sort of retort is, has become, or is becoming main stream worries me a great deal.

Yes, the flippant nature of the responses is extremely troublesome. :(

Quote from: Benoist;639860What shocks me is the way some people casually handwave the pedo stuff with "because Japan," "because Anime" and variations thereof. The fact that this sort of retort is, has become, or is becoming main stream worries me a great deal.

All right, for a recent non-anime-related example of underage romance in media, how about the plot of Moonrise Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonrise_Kingdom)? Acceptable in a film? Acceptable in a gaming scenario? And what makes the difference?

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639883All right, for a recent non-anime-related example of underage romance in media, how about the plot of Moonrise Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonrise_Kingdom)? Acceptable in a film? Acceptable in a gaming scenario? And what makes the difference?

Well, right off the bat I'd have to say that the lack of murder condoms and "likes them young" characteristics and neckbeards playing sexually submissive underage girls makes it acceptable.

Plus, according to the Wikipedia entry, the underage characters in the movie just kiss. Nothing more.

Quote from: Planet Algol;639560This thread is depressing/creepy as fuck.

Yeah. :(

Good movie, complicated film. The cove scene with the children's frank sex talk and touching is cringeworthy, however. Nothing explicit, but yes, children do pick up queues about sex around them.

Their somewhat naive imitation of adults is an interesting but challenging topic. What do you do about precocious children? How to be a good parent, scout leader, role model, society for them?

But that's a different topic than game convention survival... Anyhoo, how's the convention stench? Bring air ionizer? Febreeze?

Quote from: jeff37923;639892Plus, according to the Wikipedia entry, the underage characters in the movie just kiss. Nothing more.

What more do you need? Going by the opinions voiced in this thread, even dating should be off-limits for underage characters, and yet here you have twelve-year-olds eloping to get married. So why doesn't that "pedo" stamp come out immediately for the screenwriter and everyone else involved in the production?

(Besides, the girl does at one point invite the boy to touch her breast, and then comments a little defensively that they'll probably grow more later. It is, of course, played for laughs.)

The aftermath of the cove scene is Bill Murray's dad character rushing their little tent screaming and lifting it up and off them. They were found inside and ended up embracing each other for comfort while facing the adults. But it's obviously insinuated that the adults are concerned about the daughter being 'compromised'. There's a lot of little things like that in the film. Complicated, occasionally uncomfortable, and yet entertaining.

Haven't a clue if it's related to any of those games, but whatever. Any new sales for Gamers for Cancer?

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639900What more do you need? Going by the opinions voiced in this thread, even dating should be off-limits for underage characters, and yet here you have twelve-year-olds eloping to get married. So why doesn't that "pedo" stamp come out immediately for the screenwriter and everyone else involved in the production?

(Besides, the girl does at one point invite the boy to touch her breast, and then comments a little defensively that they'll probably grow more later. It is, of course, played for laughs.)

I note with considerable distaste your in depth knowledge of this work. Particularly so given your endless and laughable defence of the likes of maid. The major difference between a fucked up cunt such as yourself and the rest of us is we can tell the difference between a coming of age story and pornography.

I know several female schoolkids from asian countries, due to community ties among other things, and they are just children like any other children. Not sexual objects, not kinky pornstars in the theatre of your mind, just kids. The idea of someone like you stoutly defending the blatant fetishism of these children brings a red tint to my vision.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639900What more do you need? Going by the opinions voiced in this thread, even dating should be off-limits for underage characters, and yet here you have twelve-year-olds eloping to get married. So why doesn't that "pedo" stamp come out immediately for the screenwriter and everyone else involved in the production?

(Besides, the girl does at one point invite the boy to touch her breast, and then comments a little defensively that they'll probably grow more later. It is, of course, played for laughs.)

You are trying to make a slippery slope arguement, but the fact is that your movie example does not work because it isn't a RPG and it doesn't overtly sexualize underage girls and boys. Sorry, but you have failed to make adults role-playing at being children beneath the age of consent in a dominant-submissive sexual situation any less pedophilic.

Quote from: The Traveller;639905I note with considerable distaste your in depth knowledge of this work. Particularly so given your endless and laughable defence of the likes of maid. The major difference between a fucked up cunt such as yourself and the rest of us is we can tell the difference between a coming of age story and pornography.

Practically every review I've read has brought up that scene as hilarious. And did I mention anything about Moonrise Kingdom being "pornography"? No, because it clearly isn't anything of the sort. However, I'm certainly getting the impression that any number of posters in this thread can't dissociate romance and sex: why else would they be so vocally committed to ranting about games which involve the dreaded R-word?

And for the record, I picked up the DVD from the library like I do with the majority of their new acquisitions. No, it has nothing to do with treating anyone as "sexual objects" or "kinky pornstars". My apologies if being part of the local hivemind would require relentless rage over fanservice in anime and manga.

Quote from: jeff37923;639919You are trying to make a slippery slope arguement, but the fact is that your movie example does not work because it isn't a RPG and it doesn't overtly sexualize underage girls and boys.

If dating inevitably sexualizes characters, then eloping can't possibly do any less. If eloping doesn't necessarily sexualize characters, then dating won't either.

Movies aren't RPGs, that much is true. However, they both build on similar fictional premises. If someone were to adapt the script of Moonrise Kingdom into a scenario for, say, Monsters and Other Childish Things, what would your reaction be then?

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639921However, I'm certainly getting the impression that any number of posters in this thread can't dissociate romance and sex

The only one that can't dissociate those two here is you, you cankered teste. Tell us again how maid is meant to be played.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639921And for the record, I picked up the DVD from the library like I do with the majority of their new acquisitions.

So completely at random you've managed to become an expert in a movie that pretty much nobody here has ever heard of and brought it up as an example in your crusade to legitimise games like maid, you interferer with small furry animals?

The Yann Waters/GrimGent, you forgot to include the rest of my statement in your quote of me.

Quote from: jeff37923;639919Sorry, but you have failed to make adults role-playing at being children beneath the age of consent in a dominant-submissive sexual situation any less pedophilic.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639921Movies aren't RPGs, that much is true. However, they both build on similar fictional premises.

You fucking idiot, movies and RPGs are experienced differently. That is the key point here. Or can you not tell the difference between passively watching a movie and actively playing a character in a role-playing game?

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639921If someone were to adapt the script of Moonrise Kingdom into a scenario for, say, Monsters and Other Childish Things, what would your reaction be then?

They'd have a pretty fucking tough time doing it because it would be a railroad of a scenario.

Quote from: The Traveller;639926The only one that can't dissociate those two here is you, you cankered teste. Tell us again how maid is meant to be played.

Repeating the basics does get a mite tiresome, but since you asked so nicely...

The PCs are, by default, Maids employed by a Master in a Mansion, although there's no fixed genre and in practice any of those three Ms can be defined extremely loosely. This staff typically tries to earn Favour (which functions as XP, luck points, expendable resources, and social standing all rolled into one) by taking care of housework, maintaining a pleasantly romantic atmosphere, completing assigned missions, and (most critically) keeping their boss out of harm's way when the likes of time-travelling cyborg ninjas come knocking, losing an equivalent amount for failure in those duties, with the risk of getting dishonourably fired after falling to zero. They suffer increasing general penalties to all actions for being even slightly out of proper uniform, and track all harm (from hurt feelings to bodily injuries) as Stress, which may accumulate to the point of a Stress Explosion that temporarily prevents the characters from succeeding in any action which doesn't somehow involve their personal method of recuperation (anything from drinking binges to ceaseless prayer). The PCs cannot perish under the basic rules: once the Explosion has eliminated the Stress, they are back to normal again.

Beyond that, the details will vary from one game to the next according to randomness, player preference, and potentially prepared scenarios. However, it's safe to predict that in one way or another the play will always revolve around the "meido" concept as seen in anime and manga. Playing Roberta and Fabiola from Black Lagoon? Not a problem at all.

Quote from: The Traveller;639926So completely at random you've managed to become an expert in a movie that pretty much nobody here has ever heard of and brought it up as an example in your crusade to legitimise games like maid, you interferer with small furry animals?

I doubt that remembering which movies I've seen quite qualifies as "expertise": if Snow White and the Huntsman ever becomes relevant in a gaming discussion, I'll have the same benefit since that's what I watched last night. Besides, Moonrise Kingdom comes highly recommended by the library, and a quick look at their database shows nine current reservations left on the DVD even now.

Quote from: jeff37923;639929The Yann Waters/GrimGent, you forgot to include the rest of my statement in your quote of me.

I can't fail in something that wasn't my intention, which makes that part redundant. In any case, this thread and others like it have already amply demonstrated that some posters no doubt read "dominant/submissive sexual situations" into a far wider range of circumstances than I normally would.

Quote from: jeff37923;639931You fucking idiot, movies and RPGs are experienced differently. That is the key point here. Or can you not tell the difference between passively watching a movie and actively playing a character in a role-playing game?

And yet I constantly notice complaints around here about the lack of immersion in "storygames" and the so-called author stance. In that light, surely comparisons to writing a script would be appropriate? But frankly, even in a more traditional framework, the increased interactivity in the fiction by itself wouldn't seem to merit the sort of response that prevails in these discussions. After all, it is still fiction, and of a particularly abstract variety.

Quote from: jeff37923;639931They'd have a pretty fucking tough time doing it because it would be a railroad of a scenario.

As with any such adaptation, it's not exactly difficult to put together a timeline which the events will then follow unless the PCs interfere, as well as prepare the likeliest alternatives for when they do. The runaways even have a route planned, which should make it easier for the GM.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639957I can't fail in something that wasn't my intention, which makes that part redundant.

So, if you do not like it, then it does not exist. Makes your championing of pedo-games far more understandable.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639957And yet I constantly notice complaints around here about the lack of immersion in "storygames" and the so-called author stance. In that light, surely comparisons to writing a script would be appropriate? But frankly, even in a more traditional framework, the increased interactivity in the fiction by itself wouldn't seem to merit the sort of response that prevails in these discussions. After all, it is still fiction, and of a particularly abstract variety.

No. A movie or a story is not the same thing as a role-playing game.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639957As with any such adaptation, it's not exactly difficult to put together a timeline which the events will then follow unless the PCs interfere, as well as prepare the likeliest alternatives for when they do. The runaways even have a route planned, which should make it easier for the GM.

Sure, you could force the square peg into a round hole, but it'll still be a railroad because a movie has to follow a script while a role-playing game is boring as shit when it does.

Well, the Con is over.  Didn't go as well as I'd have hoped (I thought for sure out of a few thousand gamers, more than 2 would have been interested in supporting the fight against cancer.  $20 for what I think is a cool looking shirt and everything goes to American Cancer Society?  Guess I was way off on that one).

But there were a lot of lessons learned where I could have done better.  Too bad my helpers had to back out, because having games run continuously in the game room accounts for about 3/4 of all sales, so I missed out on all of that.  On the good news front, I only smelled body odor two or three times, so there weren't very many Cat Piss Men around.  That was good.  And I met some good people.  But the best part?

It was this morning when an 11 year old boy came up to my booth, shyly at first, with one of my RPG books and both of my Choose Your Own Adventure books under his arm and was just gushing about how awesome they were.  Made the whole thing worth it.  No one is in this business to get rich, but if you can spur the imagination of a child and see that wonder on their face?

Totally worth it.

"Like".

Aww, ends with a happy ending and a child.
:):cheerleader:

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_aocc315-0XoCQWTy19shxiI9pS5vpgrTCDmqMuoFMfXu4h4GWw)

Quote from: Opaopajr;640009Aww, ends with a happy ending and a child.
:):cheerleader:

Careful with that kind of language - we have Maid fans in the building. ;)

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639452The title's basically a marketing gimmick ... that can admittedly end up giving the wrong impression.

YA THINK?!?

I argued with Jake about this, to no effect. The title keeps a pretty cool game in a niche of a niche, and results in threads like this one.

Quote from: Opaopajr;639824With Twilight moms and Bieber moms and Awkward and Teenwolf and 90210 and Ashley twins legal countdown website and underaged lingerie fashion models and boys on display Abercrombie and on and on, our culture doesn't really have much to stand on in comparison. Of course that's why there had to be a law.

As communities go, tabletop gamerdom is mercifully far tamer than pop culture.

Thanks for putting things in perspective.

...

*puts face in hands and weeps quietly in corner*

Quote from: jeff37923;639931You fucking idiot, movies and RPGs are experienced differently.

Inconsequential. The latter just reveals ones interests more accurately (and because of that acts as a better social filter).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640006I thought for sure out of a few thousand gamers, more than 2 would have been interested in supporting the fight against cancer.  $20 for what I think is a cool looking shirt and everything goes to American Cancer Society?  Guess I was way off on that one.

Fuck you and your shitty shirt and you using cancer as a crutch for your fucking self rigorousness and petty ego. If the only thing moving your product is a deadly disease you may want to rethink your marketing as opposed to disparaging the moral fiber of those gamers who just weren't interested in your crap.

You know, while the pedophilia DOES bug me, I still find indie gamers who play (or at least own) those games to be far more fun, respectful, adaptable, insightful, and helpful than the folks into classic RPGs. There's a reason the D&D forum on RPG.net is a warzone, and it's largely because of D&D. So if you don't want non-gamers to get the wrong idea, maybe you should address THAT issue first.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047You know, while the pedophilia DOES bug me, I still find indie gamers who play (or at least own) those games to be far more fun, respectful, adaptable, insightful, and helpful than the folks into classic RPGs. There's a reason the D&D forum on RPG.net is a warzone, and it's largely because of D&D. So if you don't want non-gamers to get the wrong idea, maybe you should address THAT issue first.

As fun as it is to see you drive by every couple of months to drop your pronouncements on threads, if you're not enjoying it, maybe you should stop.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047You know, while the pedophilia DOES bug me, I still find indie gamers who play (or at least own) those games to be far more fun, respectful, adaptable, insightful, and helpful than the folks into classic RPGs. There's a reason the D&D forum on RPG.net is a warzone, and it's largely because of D&D. So if you don't want non-gamers to get the wrong idea, maybe you should address THAT issue first.

Well, yeah, in the sense that indie gamers who don't like D&D troll it. Usually passive-aggressively.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640006Well, the Con is over.  Didn't go as well as I'd have hoped (I thought for sure out of a few thousand gamers, more than 2 would have been interested in supporting the fight against cancer.  $20 for what I think is a cool looking shirt and everything goes to American Cancer Society?  Guess I was way off on that one).

I'm against cancer, but I wouldn't buy your shirt, because I don't like it.

QuoteIt was this morning when an 11 year old boy came up to my booth, shyly at first, with one of my RPG books and both of my Choose Your Own Adventure books under his arm and was just gushing about how awesome they were.  Made the whole thing worth it.  No one is in this business to get rich, but if you can spur the imagination of a child and see that wonder on their face?

Totally worth it.

That's some win right there.

Quote from: One Horse Town;640044Careful with that kind of language - we have Maid fans in the building. ;)

Sweet Jesus, it's sad to think people are chasing ghosts so bad we'd have to self-censor...

Quote from: jeff37923;639987So, if you do not like it, then it does not exist. Makes your championing of pedo-games far more understandable.

In case the dating/eloping comparisons didn't make it clear enough, I've been contrasting the attitudes towards Moonrise Kingdom to those earlier cries of outrage at that G x B thing. Maid doesn't really bring up dating except in one scenario which is all about helping your freshman master go out with the most popular girl at their school. For Panty Explosion... well, since Spinachcat already mentioned dating sims, I could probably have scrounged up some point of comparison from those.

As for Hot Guys Making Out, I couldn't say, since I've only seen the title in passing over at other forums.

Quote from: jeff37923;639987No. A movie or a story is not the same thing as a role-playing game.

Sure, you could force the square peg into a round hole, but it'll still be a railroad because a movie has to follow a script while a role-playing game is boring as shit when it does.

And yet any number of licensed RPGs based on movies and television shows exist out there.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640076Sweet Jesus, it's sad to think people are chasing ghosts so bad we'd have to self-censor...

'Twas but a joke, my friend. :)

Oh yes, of course. But many a truth told in jest.

Anyway, back to happier thoughts, like fighting cancer, inspired children, and clean air!

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047Fuck you and your shitty shirt and you using cancer as a crutch for your fucking self rigorousness and petty ego. If the only thing moving your product is a deadly disease you may want to rethink your marketing as opposed to disparaging the moral fiber of those gamers who just weren't interested in your crap.

I've had two friends die from it just in the past 6 months.  This has nothing to do with my ego.  This has to do with me seeing it first hand how it destroys families and trying to do whatever I can to help.

But hey, you keep shining on.


*Edit*  Oh, and the reason why I said I was disappointed in sales is because when I first started doing this, I've had about 10x the number of non gamers support this.  So forgive me for thinking a gamer-themed shirt would do better in a gamer themed event, and not be 1/10th as successful as compared to those people who don't give a shit about games.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047You know, while the pedophilia DOES bug me, I still find indie gamers who play (or at least own) those games to be far more fun, respectful, adaptable, insightful, and helpful than the folks into classic RPGs. There's a reason the D&D forum on RPG.net is a warzone, and it's largely because of D&D. So if you don't want non-gamers to get the wrong idea, maybe you should address THAT issue first.

"Oh those pesky unter-gamers and their popular games. This is a blight on the hobby, I tell you! We need more morally accepting, intellectually superior pedo-dudes to spread the good word and bring more kids to the hobby!"

A Swine statement if I ever saw one, and a distasteful one at that.

Quote from: Benoist;640088"Oh those pesky unter-gamers and their popular games. This is a blight on the hobby, I tell you! We need more morally accepting, intellectually superior pedo-dudes to spread the good word and bring more kids to the hobby!"

A Swine statement if I ever saw one, and a distasteful one at that.

He can't be serious? It's just his punchline after being a flaming douchebag to sacrosanct.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047Fuck you and your shitty shirt and you using cancer as a crutch for your fucking self rigorousness and petty ego. If the only thing moving your product is a deadly disease you may want to rethink your marketing as opposed to disparaging the moral fiber of those gamers who just weren't interested in your crap.

Here's a cloth. Now be a good dear and wipe that egg off of your face.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640080And yet any number of licensed RPGs based on movies and television shows exist out there.

You are missing the point. Those movies and TV show games are based in the settings, not the specific episodes or stories. You could have a game set in the background of Moonrise Kingdom, but to have the characters follow the scripted plot of the movie itself defeats the very purpose of a role-playing game.

What the FUCK is Anon's major dysfunction!?

Quote from: The Ent;640113What the FUCK is Anon's major dysfunction!?

How long's a piece of string?

I wonder do stamp collecting and trainspotting clubs get these kinds of people, or is it just RPGs.

Quote from: One Horse Town;640114How long's a piece of string?

Good point. :D

Quote from: The Traveller;640117I wonder do stamp collecting and trainspotting clubs get these kinds of people, or is it just RPGs.

TBH...I've seen way more lawncrappers (or whatever the correct term is), weirdoes and general fucktards in the rpg hobby than elsewhere. It's sad really :(

Quote from: The Traveller;640117I wonder do stamp collecting and trainspotting clubs get these kinds of people, or is it just RPGs.

Its the Internet. Worst flamewar I ever saw was on my girlfriend at the time's knitting forum.

Quote from: The Traveller;640117I wonder do stamp collecting and trainspotting clubs get these kinds of people, or is it just RPGs.

Check out a model train message board sometime...or one for musicians...or the Onion AVClub....or....

Quote from: The Traveller;640117I wonder do stamp collecting and trainspotting clubs get these kinds of people, or is it just RPGs.

RPGs are focused on pretend, in a fantasy setting.  Most other hobbies don't rely on that.  The problem is that certain people see, "RPGs are focused on pretend, in a fantasy setting." and think that means any and every fantasy is A-OK.

The Blue Lagoon isn't in itself a pedo film, but a 35 year old neckbeard thinking, "I like to fantasize me in place of the blonde kid, because Brooke Shields is beautiful" is pretty much pedo all the way.  It's shocking that certain people can't see that difference a film (the latter), and an RPG (the former).  An RPG makes it personal.

Quote from: jeff37923;640101You are missing the point. Those movies and TV show games are based in the settings, not the specific episodes or stories. You could have a game set in the background of Moonrise Kingdom, but to have the characters follow the scripted plot of the movie itself defeats the very purpose of a role-playing game.

That would be a problem with actually scripting the course of the entire scenario, yes, but not with letting the events unfold on their own after initially setting up everything based on the same premise and anticipating the various options available to the PCs during play. That's no different from preparing for any other session.

How does the ignore list work on this forum?  I think I need to use it for my own blood pressure.

My mistake, nevermind

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640144How does the ignore list work on this forum?  I think I need to use it for my own blood pressure.

Highly recommended, both here AND at TBP for the pissy "don't you realize how offense that statement is" offense-trolls.

Quote from: Planet Algol;640145Wasn't that Grim "Gent" asshole previously banned for being pedo-tastic?

Oh, charming. Whether you're throwing out random slurs or just mistaking identities, it's probably worth pointing out that I've never been banned from any forum.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640144How does the ignore list work on this forum?  I think I need to use it for my own blood pressure.

Just breath and dont feel like you need to respond to every post that rubs you the wrong way. My rule of thumb is, the moment a forum discussion adds stress to my life, I step back and participate in a different conversation.

If you do want to ignore someone, just click on their profile, go to user lists and select "Ignore List".

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047Fuck you and your shitty shirt and you using cancer as a crutch for your fucking self rigorousness and petty ego. If the only thing moving your product is a deadly disease you may want to rethink your marketing as opposed to disparaging the moral fiber of those gamers who just weren't interested in your crap.

You know, while the pedophilia DOES bug me, I still find indie gamers who play (or at least own) those games to be far more fun, respectful, adaptable, insightful, and helpful than the folks into classic RPGs. There's a reason the D&D forum on RPG.net is a warzone, and it's largely because of D&D. So if you don't want non-gamers to get the wrong idea, maybe you should address THAT issue first.

...and here it is, Anon Adderlan being a sack of crap.  The proceeds from the shirt go to charity (if you want to question that, say that).

If owning indie games makes people more respectful and helpful, you need to buy some more goddamn indie games.

Quote from: Planet Algol;640145Wasn't that Grim "Gent" asshole previously banned for being pedo-tastic?

Fool me twice....

No and although he defends stuff we don't like, i don't think throwing that kind of accusation around is very constructive.

It's a way of shutting someone up who although A) Shows annoying tenacity in defending potentially dodgy shit has B) Never ever suggested that he thinks actual dodgy shit is anything but that.

Sorry, I got him confused with someone else then.

Quote from: VectorSigma;640150...and here it is, Anon Adderlan being a sack of crap.  The proceeds from the shirt go to charity (if you want to question that, say that).

I'd be more than happy to show receipts if someone were to do that.  In fact, I actually donated extra because the actual donation amount from sales was only $30 something, and that's not nearly enough of a donation IMO.

QuoteIf owning indie games makes people more respectful and helpful, you need to buy some more goddamn indie games.

totally.  Most of us Indie guys are total assholes.

Quote from: Ladybird;640071I'm against cancer, but I wouldn't buy your shirt, because I don't like it.

Fair enough.  I don't expect people to buy things they actively don't like

QuoteThat's some win right there.

It was.  The other really awesome moment?  When a guy came up to me and said, "Hey, I read the review of your game on KotDT"

My heart immediately dropped and I was dreading what was coming next (I've mentioned that review on here in the past).

But he said, "I actually have talked with Jolly before, and I wrote him telling him he was way wrong on this one.  You got shafted."  That made me feel A LOT better.  Then he introduced himself as Brendan.  I guess guys named Brendan are awesome by default ;)

How the hell does this thread end up getting 12 pages? I post this having looked only at the 1st page... so I'm betting it'll be interesting for me to find out...

Quote from: RPGPundit;640362How the hell does this thread end up getting 12 pages?

Rehashing heated arguments on old topics, mainly. That always seems to do the trick.

I was thinking more "12 pages? This is only page 3, for me..."

Quote from: The Traveller;639590The previous comments were directed towards an individual who has attempted to excuse maid's 'seduce a nine year old' with translation error, despite the fact that the translator is a native English speaker. In that context I do indeed find him fucked up. Ghost in the Shell, Fullmetal Alchemist, Black Lagoon, all completely devoid of the underwear of minors, and yet some people gravitate towards the nasty stuff and THEN feel obliged to evangelise their proclivities.

Lawncrappers all.

No no, they're just being "transgressive", don't you see? They're doing ART that makes us question our privileged assumptions, like that 9 year old girls shouldn't be sodomized with broomhandles, and young boys shouldn't be decapitated and have their neckholes fucked.  That kind of thinking is the product of our racist patriarchal society, and we can't oppress them with our bourgeois morality!

Fuckers.

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639597"Enticement" would apparently have been the strictest translation.

OH! Its "enticement" and not "Seduction"... well then, that's just fine! Clearly, "Enticing" a 9 year old girl is certainly OK.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;640391OH! Its "enticement" and not "Seduction"... well then, that's just fine! Clearly, "Enticing" a 9 year old girl is certainly OK.

RPGPundit

*shudders*

Quote from: Planet Algol;639717How many goddamn pedo-ish/-esque rpgs are there?

FUCK!

Lots, but they're all being made by the same tiny group of people; the ex-elite of the Forge. Vince Baker, Andy K, Ben Lehman, all the filth of the hobby who at the same time dare to try to dictate either morality or game design theory to the rest of us.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;640391OH! Its "enticement" and not "Seduction"... well then, that's just fine! Clearly, "Enticing" a 9 year old girl is certainly OK.

In the context that the word's used here, yes. It's still the system's general term for gaining an emotional hold over someone, not "a sex roll" or something specific to that particular situation: in much the same way, if the section instead referred to Mao helping those who "defeat her in combat", that wouldn't necessarily involve any kind of fighting because "combat" in this case covers all opposed actions, for example trying to influence, outperform, or hinder another character in any way. In the scenario, this means swaying the ghost to your side by providing a reason to stay on Earth. And yes, these discussions always conveniently forget that she is a ghost from over half a century ago who uses her supernatural powers to guard the mansion from intruders, including the PCs.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;639957Besides, Moonrise Kingdom comes highly recommended by the library, and a quick look at their database shows nine current reservations left on the DVD even now.

Its an awesome Wes Anderson film about two kids who don't fit in anywhere, falling in love.
Since neither of them are sodomized with broomsticks or have their throats raped, nor are they being played by 34 year old men, nor is "sex" a central theme of the story, I really don't know what its doing in this conversation.

Its pretty freaking obvious that games like "hot guys (that is man/boy love) making out" is intended to put a big emphasis on the sexual aspects, trying to pretend that this is somehow the same as a Wes Anderson film is ridiculous.

For starters, Anderson is a fucking genius, while Baker, Andy K, Lehman et. al. are pseudo-intellectual morally-bankrupt laughably-untalented posers who mistake offensiveness for cleverness.

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640414In the context that the word's used here, yes. It's still the system's general term for gaining an emotional hold over someone, not "a sex roll" or something specific to that particular situation:

Right, so was it an "enticement" or "Seduction" roll that was done to convince the 9 year old maid to wear a transparent maid uniform?

RPGPundit

Here's what I don't get.  Well, one of the things I don't get about this whole mess.  Even if you don't play the game as encouraged by raping kids, and instead only have the PCs as adults, it seems a typical session (as I linked to in the other thread to youtube actual play events) often results in graphic sexual scenarios.  And this is the part that throws me off, because the same person doing this in a game of Maid:

"I rub my huge breasts up and down his face..."

is also the same person on various forums who has said this:

"You checked out my boobs at a con*?  That's fucking rape man!  You're raping me!  You just don't see it because of your privilege."

That seems pretty hypocritical to me.



*because you wore a shirt under your corset that said "BOOBIES" in large print.  At the Con I was just at, there seemed to be a lot of women who wore shirts like that, or ones with a set of d20s with the 20 showing right where the boobs are and the word "Natural" right under them.  There was a lot of clothing like that.

Didn't I ask you if neck fucking a decapitated cabin boy was an in-book example of play and found out instead it was an example of play from some fucknuts at a convention?

Just like stupid, can't really stop creepy fucknuts from messing with whatever is put out there. Not even a cigar is benign in the hands of a US president...

Does it "encourage" such play and obscene description in a public place? Basically, does it encourage fucknuts to be fucknuts? Well, I have no idea as I don't own or read these books. But if jackasses at a Con are enough to indict... then people complaining about WW and Sabbat, Black Spiral Dancers, LARP, et al., and TSR/WotC D&D with evil alignments available, tomb raiding, and humanoid genocide, etc. might gladly jump into the same fray.

Things like a Something Awful exposé of interior content of FATAL or Maid help frame the discussion about what's being declared and why it's not okay (why oh why must I have to type that out...). But quoting jackass consumers while in public, meh, I can get plenty of that embarrassing stupidity at the local sports bar. Still speaks nothing inherently of the game. Quote this Guys on Guys game or let it be.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640451Didn't I ask you if neck fucking a decapitated cabin boy was an in-book example of play and found out instead it was an example of play from some fucknuts at a convention?

Just like stupid, can't really stop creepy fucknuts from messing with whatever is put out there. Not even a cigar is benign in the hands of a US president...

Does it "encourage" such play and obscene description in a public place? Basically, does it encourage fucknuts to be fucknuts? Well, I have no idea as I don't own or read these books. But if jackasses at a Con are enough to indict... then people complaining about WW and Sabbat, Black Spiral Dancers, LARP, et al., and TSR/WotC D&D with evil alignments available, tomb raiding, and humanoid genocide, etc. might gladly jump into the same fray.

Things like a Something Awful exposé of interior content of FATAL or Maid help frame the discussion about what's being declared and why it's not okay (why oh why must I have to type that out...). But quoting jackass consumers while in public, meh, I can get plenty of that embarrassing stupidity at the local sports bar. Still speaks nothing inherently of the game. Quote this Guys on Guys game or let it be.

I think I get what you're trying to say.  I don't have a copy of Hot Guys Making Out in front of me to quote.  but the cover was a half naked adult man looking at the reader in what appeared to be anger while embracing a 10ish year old naked boy who was peeking out of the arms of the adult in fear.  Doesn't take a genius to put together that image with the name of the title to figure out what the game is about.

Quote from: RPGPundit;640434Its an awesome Wes Anderson film about two kids who don't fit in anywhere, falling in love.
Since neither of them are sodomized with broomsticks or have their throats raped, nor are they being played by 34 year old men, nor is "sex" a central theme of the story, I really don't know what its doing in this conversation.

That was a counterpoint to the earlier claim about G x B (which, by the way, looks more like a party game or a freeform exercise than an RPG) that even dating sexualizes underage characters to a degree that makes it inappropriate for gaming. Clearly, I disagree: not only are dating concerns a logical part of life for teenage characters, but there are perfectly respectable dating games out there which in no way involve sex. And no, I wouldn't consider a goodnight kiss "a sexual situation", or start worrying about whether the person to make that move is "dominating" the other.

As for that "broomstick sodomy" comment, it's about as accurate as describing the quidditch matches in Rowling's books as Harry Potter getting sodomized with a Nimbus 2000. There may well be fanfic of that somewhere on the Internet, but it wasn't in Maid even before the later re-editing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;640440Right, so was it an "enticement" or "Seduction" roll that was done to convince the 9 year old maid to wear a transparent maid uniform?

Nope. For one thing, the seduction mechanic was added as an option in a later supplement: it didn't even exist at the time when the core booklet with the first replay was published. For another, the uniform was decided by that maid's player at chargen: this particular roll on the colour chart explicitly gives a choice between "Transparent" or "Rainbow".

The seduction roll in itself doesn't really do anything. Rather, you may attempt it under the right circumstances in order to establish a relationship with someone else. But convincing others would typically fall under the Cunning attribute.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640454That was a counterpoint to the earlier claim about G x B (which, by the way, looks more like a party game or a freeform exercise than an RPG) that even dating sexualizes underage characters to a degree that makes it inappropriate for gaming. Clearly, I disagree: not only are dating concerns a logical part of life for teenage characters, but there are perfectly respectable dating games out there which in no way involve sex. And no, I wouldn't consider a goodnight kiss "a sexual situation", or start worrying about whether the person to make that move is "dominating" the other.
.

Here's what you are continually choosing to ignore in your desperate attempt to excuse your NAMBLA behavior.  Yes, dating is natural for teenagers.  But most of those games?  They're designed for 16+ age groups.  A game about kids designed where kids aren't allowed to play it?  Get it now?  That's a huge red flag right there.  If you have an age limit of 16+, that heavily infers mature content.  Again, in a game about kids.

I don't have a problem if 12 year olds are playing a game where their characters are 12 year olds looking for dates.  I have a problem with these guys (the creators):

(http://atarashigames.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/saklrg.jpg)

playing as 12 year girls/boys -and/or- targeting 12 year girls/boys in a mature themed game.  That just screams 'pedo" all over it, and the fact that no matter how many people are telling you it's fucked up, you just don't get it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640451Didn't I ask you if neck fucking a decapitated cabin boy was an in-book example of play and found out instead it was an example of play from some fucknuts at a convention?

Yes, an example of play the game's author found totally awesome, and defended.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640462Yes, dating is natural for teenagers.  But most of those games?  They're designed for 16+ age groups.  A game about kids designed where kids aren't allowed to play it?  Get it now?  That's a huge red flag right there.  If you have an age limit of 16+, that heavily infers mature content.  Again, in a game about kids.

Determining age ratings for tabletop RPGs is tricky (at a guess most would fall into the "older teens" category), but I can certainly think of quite a few which are "about kids but not for kids", without there being anything suspicious about it. Monsters and Other Childish Things and World of Darkness: Innocents spring instantly to mind.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640454That was a counterpoint to the earlier claim about G x B (which, by the way, looks more like a party game or a freeform exercise than an RPG) that even dating sexualizes underage characters to a degree that makes it inappropriate for gaming.

Because its two 35 year old men pretending to be teenagers dating and being very interested about the sex lives of teenage characters.  So yes.
Its like the difference between why Romeo and Juliet is acceptable, while a guy writing fanfiction porn where he imagines a proxy of himself getting it on with a Disney tween-show-star is not. Trying to pretend these are the same things is retarded, just like trying to pretend that Maid or Panty Explosion or "hot guys making out" are the same thing as a Buffy RPG game is retarded.

QuoteNope. For one thing, the seduction mechanic was added as an option in a later supplement: it didn't even exist at the time when the core booklet with the first replay was published. For another, the uniform was decided by that maid's player at chargen: this particular roll on the colour chart explicitly gives a choice between "Transparent" or "Rainbow".

I see, so in Maid you neither have to seduce nor entice preteen characters to wear transparent outfits. Good to know.

Oddly enough, the cover for Hot Guys Making Out doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

The game, yes, the cover, no.

Quote from: Planet Algol;640479Oddly enough, the cover for Hot Guys Making Out doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

The game, yes, the cover, no.

It was only at the convention.  And it looked like it was a quick local print job.  So I wouldn't expect it would be online.  Yet.  I sort of wish it were, because it really helps set the context here.  As if the description wasn't bad enough.

*Edit*  Ok, let's see if this works

(//photo%20removed)

I was a bit mistaken.  the kid isn't naked.  It's still super creepy in the context of the art and title.  I thought it was a woman at first, but they are both male.  Also in the photo is the cover to G x G (girl on girl), where it should be noted that the cover was criticized because the girls looked too old.

Yeah, that's what I stared at all weekend, and watched them fly off the shelves.

Quote from: Planet Algol;640479Oddly enough, the cover for Hot Guys Making Out doesn't seem to exist on the internet.

The game, yes, the cover, no.

Strange but true, I just checked. Maybe google yanked it as paedophilia, they won't display any images like that. I just hope I haven't been tagged by looking for it. Meanwhile, check out this terse paragraph which is the entirety of the game's description on the creator's website:

QuoteHot Guys Making Out is a yaoi role-playing game, set in the Spanish Civil War, in which a tormented nobleman and his young ward attempt to resist their forbidden love for each other, and fail.

If you would like a copy of it e-mail me at taogames@gmail.com and we’ll work something out.

Creeptastic.

Quote from: RPGPundit;640478Because its two 35 year old men pretending to be teenagers dating and being very interested about the sex lives of teenage characters.  So yes.
Its like the difference between why Romeo and Juliet is acceptable, while a guy writing fanfiction porn where he imagines a proxy of himself getting it on with a Disney tween-show-star is not. Trying to pretend these are the same things is retarded, just like trying to pretend that Maid or Panty Explosion or "hot guys making out" are the same thing as a Buffy RPG game is retarded.

Maid isn't about teenagers, although nothing prevents you from playing them, and the "meido" concept is more about cuteness and romance than sex in any case. Panty Explosion is about high school girls, but not (despite the title) about their sex lives, and nothing prevents you from playing students on their last year. I still don't have any clear idea what Hot Guys Making Out is about.

Hmm. A thought exercise... As I recall, Teenagers From Outer Space discourages actual sex on the grounds that keeping the characters frustrated is funnier than "going all the way". How would you feel about PCs dating in it?

Quote from: RPGPundit;640478I see, so in Maid you neither have to seduce nor entice preteen characters to wear transparent outfits. Good to know.

Actually, both the maid's age and the uniform's transparency came down entirely to that player's personal choice, not the game itself. A 25-year-old maid with a rainbow-coloured uniform would have been every bit as valid.

I can also read Playboy just for the joke section, but that doesn't mean that the magazine wasn't intended for people to look at naked women.

Holy fuck...

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640488Hmm. A thought exercise... As I recall, Teenagers From Outer Space discourages actual sex on the grounds that keeping the characters frustrated is funnier than "going all the way". How would you feel about PCs dating in it?

Great!

Because, like you said (and it even says so in the Goddamn rules for Teenagers From Outer Space), the characters never get to go all the way. It is not that kind of game and no matter how hard you try to make it so, it is not a game of creepy paedophilic bullshit.

Oh, that's total Yaoi fansevice aesthetic. They like their twinks to look very effeminate (which is easily mistaken to our eyes as young) and their butchs to look comically masculine. Unless the interior says otherwise, most of these end up being college guys or fresh college grads in the corporate world.

You'd have to have someone buy it and read it to know if it was different.

About the author thinking it was swell to role play "neckfuck the decapitated cabinboy!" as an on-scene game act, at a con, that's eww! bad judgment.

But given my country is now dealing with a media spate of actual high school athletes raping a young classmate, filming pissing all over her, dragging her to other parties to do the same, put it up on YouTube, and then be defended by the authorities in the community (and a similar report, with less pissing, showing up only a month after. and the Sandusky trial, my god!) --- let me just say I don't blame the rules of high school and college football. I blame the fans and the players for committing actual crimes and protecting criminals. Adults making bad choices must still leave the blame upon the adult making the choice, not the venue, clothes, aesthetic culture, etc. No thing makes you do evil, you choose evil.

Distasteful I can deal with. Overt criminality aided and abetted, I can not. And as long as no children are in those games and no one is being touched, sucks to say, it isn't an issue except taste.

Further, as the US pornography guiderule is "I know it when I see it" I just don't see it for this Hot Guys Making Out game. I am tempted to see it on jr. petite girl's wear with "juicy" or "spank me, I'm a bad girl" plastered on the ass (like Victoria Secret and Juicy Couture right now), but since it's also a size for the market of really tiny adult women who want to look like sex workers, there's really nothing to be done about that either. Infuriating yes, but there's apparently a lot of under 5' adult women who want that look, and I need to get over my filthy mind projecting bad deeds on others.

Welcome to the joys of modernity. Pick your battles wisely. This book might not be one of them.
:(

Quote from: Opaopajr;640583Oh, that's total Yaoi fansevice aesthetic. They like their twinks to look very effeminate

...


Welcome to the joys of modernity. Pick your battles wisely. This book might not be one of them.

Oh so it's alright to publish paedophilia because miniskirts eh?

No, and it never, ever will be.

Ever.

That to me looks like a grooming instruction manual, so here's what I'm going to do, being a firm believer in the philosophy that the best way to make something go away is to make it go away. I'm going to forward that photo along with the site description to these guys (https://tips.fbi.gov/) and we'll see what they have to say about the matter. Who knows, maybe they'll view it as art. I recommend everyone who feels similarly do the same.

I removed the photo pf the game's cover. If the other mods disagree it will go back up. But it seems like this image just doesnt belong on this site.

If you feel an image is inappropriate, please dont post it to demonstrate that it is.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;640620I removed the photo pf the game's cover. If the other mods disagree it will go back up. But it seems like this image just doesnt belong on this site.

If you feel an image is inappropriate, please dont post it to demonstrate that it is.

Sorry about that.  But it sort of backs up my original point from the start of this thread.  An image like that is potentially bad enough that it needs to be removed as possibly violating this site, but at the same time, was not only A-OK at the con, but a lot of people loved it.  What is our community coming to when that's the case?

Quote from: The Traveller;640617Oh so it's alright to publish paedophilia because miniskirts eh?

No, and it never, ever will be.

Ever.

That to me looks like a grooming instruction manual, so here's what I'm going to do, being a firm believer in the philosophy that the best way to make something go away is to make it go away. I'm going to forward that photo along with the site description to these guys (https://tips.fbi.gov/) and we'll see what they have to say about the matter. Who knows, maybe they'll view it as art. I recommend everyone who feels similarly do the same.

That is a neurotic distortion of everything I've said and you know it. If you cannot handle this conversation without lying and obliquely libeling me then back off.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640680That is a neurotic distortion of everything I've said and you know it. If you cannot handle this conversation without lying and obliquely libeling me then back off.

So what exactly are you saying, that some creepy neckbeards can produce a game which depicts what appears to be a minor and an adult in a sexually charged situation on the cover, about "a tormented nobleman and his young ward attempting to resist their forbidden love for each other" and nobody can do anything about it?

I'm afraid that's just not true.

Quote from: jeff37923;640575Great!

Because, like you said (and it even says so in the Goddamn rules for Teenagers From Outer Space), the characters never get to go all the way. It is not that kind of game and no matter how hard you try to make it so, it is not a game of creepy paedophilic bullshit.

I have no interest in slinging mud at TFOS. The point is that it's a prime example of treating teenage sexual frustration as a comedic device in a way which doesn't seem to raise cries of outrage. It's essentially, at least in the current edition, the closest thing to an unofficial Urusei Yatsura RPG (very, very obviously with that "Lust Stone" intro comic).

By the way, the R. Talsorian website really looks like a relic from Internet history.

Quote from: The Traveller;640693So what exactly are you saying, .

this

Quote from: Opaopajr;640583And as long as no children are in those games and no one is being touched, sucks to say, it isn't an issue except taste.

Which I have to disagree with strongly.  Realistic CG child porn is nothing but a difference in taste and it's not a battle worth fighting against, since no actual kids were harming in making it?

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640704I have no interest in slinging mud at TFOS. The point is that it's a prime example of treating teenage sexual frustration as a comedic device in a way which doesn't seem to raise cries of outrage. It's essentially, at least in the current edition, the closest thing to an unofficial Urusei Yatsura RPG (very, very obviously with that "Lust Stone" intro comic).

By the way, the R. Talsorian website really looks like a relic from Internet history.

If you have no interest in slinging mud at Teenagers From Outer Space, then why in the fuck are you comparing it to a game where

Quotea tormented nobleman and his young ward attempt to resist their forbidden love for each other, and fail.

Your arguement is more fucked up than a soup sandwich because Teenagers From Outer Space and Hot Guys Making Out are light-years different from each other in what kind of audience they are catering to. The former is meant for gamers while the later is meant for paedophilic creepers masquerading as gamers. Just like how Maid is meant for paedophilic creepers.

All those manga and anime images are readily available at the local Japanese and Korean import stores in my metro area. Hell, translated versions of the PG stuff (whose covers looks extremely similar) are available in all my area's Half Priced Books. If it was an issue of real pedophilia those things would be off the shelves and people being prosecuted. You're welcome to call the FBI and indict all the Half Priced Books in the SF Bay Area if you like. Their retail info is readily available on the net.

Unless those gaming books talk about actual pedophilia inside, that art is no different than what is already for sale here and now, and thus this is about projection of assumed crimes. Or are you suggesting US Customs and FBI are not already doing their jobs?

Oho, I just figured out why they looked like they were printed in someone's garage, they probably were (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartoon_child_pornography#18_USC_1466A):

Quote18 USC 1466A

By its own terms, the law does not make all simulated child pornography illegal, only that found to be obscene or lacking in serious value. And mere possession of said images is not a violation of the law unless it can be proven that they were transmitted through a common carrier, such as the mail or the internet, or transported across state lines.

This is probably also why the covers aren't shown on the website, and the short paragraph describing the game mentions "working something out".

That just just buried the needle on my creepometer. I dunno, this whole conversation is making me sick to my stomach.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640712Unless those gaming books talk about actual pedophilia inside,

QuoteHot Guys Making Out is a yaoi role-playing game, set in the Spanish Civil War, in which a tormented nobleman and his young ward attempt to resist their forbidden love for each other, and fail.

Isn't that pedophilic enough for you?

There we go! Now THAT is damning!

Tragically however, because I've read Bleak House (good classic lit!) and know that old time definition of ward -- such as late 1800s and early 1900s -- can still mean over our definition of the age of majority, there's a chance the ward can be over 18 yrs of age. It might actually still be legit, but skirts ever so creepily close to the line.

I however have no interest in you finding out more. Especially as this is an underground published fan work. It's just too risky and eww! The art is nothing I haven't seen at retail here before. But that suggested content and published outside normalized channels raises HUGE red flags. It's just not worth the effort to know more.

Quote from: jeff37923;640709If you have no interest in slinging mud at Teenagers From Outer Space, then why in the fuck are you comparing it to a game where...

I'm not. In fact, the only thing I've said about HGMO in this thread is that I don't know anything about it beyond the title. I would, however, be interested in hearing what the crucial difference between TFOS and PE is supposed to be.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;640620I removed the photo pf the game's cover. If the other mods disagree it will go back up. But it seems like this image just doesnt belong on this site.

If you feel an image is inappropriate, please dont post it to demonstrate that it is.

The image is not pornographic per se, and I think you may have been a little premature in removing it; but at the same time the last thing we need is escalation, and for that matter the last thing I want is to inadvertently promote this asshole's game.  So we'll have your judgment call stand in this case, but without any prejudice toward the person who posted it.

RPGPundit

Could it be turned into a clickable link instead of an autodisplaying image?

I for one am happy that it is not posted, and would rather not see it.  

I think I'm of the same general opinion as Opaopajr.  

Firstly, I see a movie and a book (portraying a fictional universe) as legitimate forms of artistic expression, and sometimes bad things happen that are legitimate for the expression of that story.  As an example, I am not a fan of George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones.  I read a couple of the books (maybe three) at the urging of my then room-mate.  I like escapist fantasy.  If I want to read about rape and murder, I'll take it from the main-stream news, thank you very much.  But clearly, when George R. R. Martin is describing sexual situations with Danerys (sp?) and her husband, he is not a teenage girl.  As an author, he is portraying a story that has questionable content at the very least.  I'm sure that there are some people who read those passages with a raging boner, and there are others that are sickened by it.  He felt it made sense for the characters and the story.  

RPGs are different than movies or books, but they're not THAT different.  I have played RPGs that had all the players take established roles from characters in fiction (happened to be Dragonlance, and there was no pedo bullshit there).  I can see similar types of games set in the Game of Thrones world - and that would necessarily involve some unpleasant activities if you're playing your character 'correctly'.  

That's the thing about characters - they don't have to represent the 'real you'.  Sometimes you play a villain (an evil drow with all the depravity it demands) and that doesn't NECESSARILY MAKE YOU A SICK FUCK.  If all your characters are demented even if it doesn't make sense for the character than you're pretty clearly on the far side of that line.  

Now, for myself, I am a father of two daughters (age 5 and 2).  I am not a pedo.  I want to protect them from pedos.  It's a constant worry.  But I can see that a gamer playing a questionable game doesn't make them automatically a pedo.  

In a campaign that I'm currently playing, the GM insisted that we all be 'local yokels' in a 'zero to hero' story set in a dark fantasy world with some horror elements.  Per the character creation guidelines, my character is a 16-year-old male.  I do not play the character in a sexual way (as in, he has not attempted to have actual intercourse with any NPCs or other players).  But, if anybody here has been a 16-year-old boy before, they should be aware that sex and sexuality are a big part of the biology of that age.  When my character found an illustrated book that described many fey creatures, the first thing he did was have a careful trace made of the 'nymph' page, and he keeps it with him nearly all the time.  His big plan is to marry a 14-year-old girl from his village (her father is the local priest).  

Now, I could have decided that he's only interested in older women, but then that creates the whole statutory rape situation.  Or I could have decided that he is completely asexual, but that would ignore a whole important part of a character's psyche.  

The fact is, it's much like Buffy (not that I've seen much of it).  Nobody cares that these are 'supposed to be teens' and nobody is getting off on anything.  It's just people playing a game.  We kill monsters and try to play our characters 'appropriately' - and that means doing what the character would do if they were a real live person in the situation that we encounter - but not if it were me!!!  I'd probably run away from most of these things - I have a family that I need to protect and getting offed by a tentacle horror doesn't fit well in those plans.  

There are probably some terrible people that play roleplaying games - in fact, I'm sure of it.  There are also terrible people who play computer games.  Not everyone who plays World of Warcraft is also on 4Chan.  

If we let the outside world define RPG gamers by our worst element, we're doing ourselves a disservice.  There are bad RPG gamers - there will always be bad RPG gamers.  Just like there are bad priests and will always be some bad priests - it doesn't mean that they're all bad.  

I can understand why a game like MAID wouldn't appeal to everyone.  I know it doesn't appeal to me.  But Yann Waters, who seems to be the only one is very familiar with the game, makes some very plausible statements about how the game does not ENCOURAGE a particular play style.  

Since I know that D&D (any edition) also doesn't encourage sexual relations with underage characters but could be used that way, I don't think it necessarily means the game is sick - it just draws a higher percentage of sick gamers.  

I still think that spending time talking about 'niche games' in 'mainstream circles' does more to 'normalize' those games than simply ignoring them.  Unless the point is to warn people away - but even then, I think it's mostly unnecessary.  I've known enough people that are 'off' that play mainstream games that I'm always careful around new gamers - I'd hope everyone has the same level of caution.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640006Well, the Con is over.  Didn't go as well as I'd have hoped (I thought for sure out of a few thousand gamers, more than 2 would have been interested in supporting the fight against cancer.  $20 for what I think is a cool looking shirt and everything goes to American Cancer Society?  Guess I was way off on that one).

But there were a lot of lessons learned where I could have done better.  Too bad my helpers had to back out, because having games run continuously in the game room accounts for about 3/4 of all sales, so I missed out on all of that.  On the good news front, I only smelled body odor two or three times, so there weren't very many Cat Piss Men around.  That was good.  And I met some good people.  But the best part?

It was this morning when an 11 year old boy came up to my booth, shyly at first, with one of my RPG books and both of my Choose Your Own Adventure books under his arm and was just gushing about how awesome they were.  Made the whole thing worth it.  No one is in this business to get rich, but if you can spur the imagination of a child and see that wonder on their face?

Totally worth it.

If I'd been at the con (and if I had the spare scratch - not something that happens too often these days) I totally would have bought one of your shirts. Keep fighting the good fight; I'm glad you got to end off the whole thing on a reassuring note via the little man! Good on you.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047Fuck you and your shitty shirt and you using cancer as a crutch for your fucking self rigorousness and petty ego. If the only thing moving your product is a deadly disease you may want to rethink your marketing as opposed to disparaging the moral fiber of those gamers who just weren't interested in your crap.

Before this post I couldn't have imagined the sort of person who would disparage a person taking the time and effort to sell a product wherein all proceeds go to a worthy charity.

After this post I can imagine that sort of person.

You unbelievable asshole.

Quote from: Géza Echs;640911Before this post I couldn't have imagined the sort of person who would disparage a person taking the time and effort to sell a product wherein all proceeds go to a worthy charity.

After this post I can imagine that sort of person.

You unbelievable asshole.

You may have noticed that my response to him was lacking of my usual knee-jerk rage.  That is because when someone goes that far, I am convinced that they are just trolling.

Y'know, trolling is what immediately comes to mind about a lot of this and how to deal with it. There was tons of juvenile crap from players in the White Wolf market, trying to be more edgier than thou and attempting to be more risqué than anything Black Dog put out. But that's not what White Wolf is all about, nor are its players.

It's like stupid kids going through the motions of what it means to be rebellious, killing puppies for Satan and trying to be so in your face.

And yet at the end of the day, the worst thing to do is yawn in their face and ignore them. Ther's cache in the outré; there's none in looking pathetic and being dismissed.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;640853I can understand why a game like MAID wouldn't appeal to everyone.  I know it doesn't appeal to me.  But Yann Waters, who seems to be the only one is very familiar with the game, makes some very plausible statements about how the game does not ENCOURAGE a particular play style.

Incidentally, Ryo Kamiya who designed Maid went on a few years later to make Yuuyake Koyake, a non-violent "feelgood" game about magical animals who can take on the form of human children in order to help the people of a small countryside town with their everyday problems. Here (http://starlinepublishing.com/golden-sky-stories-tabletop-day-2013-demo/) is the new Tabletop Day demo document for the English version that's currently being prepared under the title of Golden Sky Stories.

And no, there's nothing questionable about it.

HE HAS RISEN!

Quote from: One Horse Town;640048

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047You know, while the pedophilia DOES bug me, I still find indie gamers who play (or at least own) those games to be far more fun, respectful, adaptable, insightful, and helpful than the folks into classic RPGs. There's a reason the D&D forum on RPG.net is a warzone, and it's largely because of D&D. So if you don't want non-gamers to get the wrong idea, maybe you should address THAT issue first.

As fun as it is to see you drive by every couple of months to drop your pronouncements on threads, if you're not enjoying it, maybe you should stop.

Yes, this TOTALLY ADDRESSES THE SITUATION!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640084I've had two friends die from it just in the past 6 months.  This has nothing to do with my ego.

I lost a grandfather to Cancer. But please, tell me that doesn't compare to losing two friends in 6 months.

Now let's recap shall we?

A poster by the name Sacrosanct (https://www.google.com/search?q=Sacrosanct) (Adjective: (esp. of a principle, place, or routine) Regarded as too important or valuable to be interfered with. Synonyms: sacred - holy - inviolable) starts a thread to play the Hero from the Mountain and bring the word of Real Roleplaying to the people of the con (who are totally misled into believing that storygames are more popular just because they're selling better), call his fellow vendors pedophiles, and then finally accuse the attendees of being indifferent to Cancer because they didn't donate to HIS specific charity to wear HIS specific T-Shirt.

Yeah, that doesn't make you a sanctimonious asshole. At all.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640084Oh, and the reason why I said I was disappointed in sales is because when I first started doing this, I've had about 10x the number of non gamers support this.  So forgive me for thinking a gamer-themed shirt would do better in a gamer themed event, and not be 1/10th as successful as compared to those people who don't give a shit about games.

So are you saying that gamers give less of a shit about Cancer? And where you ask for donations has an effect. Maybe you should hit the local churches, or better yet the hospitals and introduce the kids there to gaming.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640448Even if you don't play the game as encouraged by raping kids

Which game are you talking about? Also citation.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640448And this is the part that throws me off, because the same person doing this in a game of Maid:

"I rub my huge breasts up and down his face..."

is also the same person on various forums who has said this:

"You checked out my boobs at a con*?  That's fucking rape man!  You're raping me!  You just don't see it because of your privilege."

That seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Missing evidence is missing.

But this TOTALLY represents every Maid player out there, and maybe even every female gamer too!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640448*because you wore a shirt under your corset that said "BOOBIES" in large print.  At the Con I was just at, there seemed to be a lot of women who wore shirts like that, or ones with a set of d20s with the 20 showing right where the boobs are and the word "Natural" right under them.  There was a lot of clothing like that.

Perhaps you'd be more successful with a t-shirt for breast cancer then.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640480I was a bit mistaken.  the kid isn't naked.

The fact you had to overstate your argument in the first place undermines your point.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640480Yeah, that's what I stared at all weekend, and watched them fly off the shelves.

I guess your fellow convention goers ARE dirty pedophiles then. Or maybe the fault lies in your own inability to move product.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640488Panty Explosion is about high school girls, but not (despite the title) about their sex lives, and nothing prevents you from playing students on their last year. I still don't have any clear idea what Hot Guys Making Out is about.

This doesn't do your side of the argument any favors, as Panty Explosion isn't about 'panties' either, and HGMO makes its subject matter very obvious in both its title, description, and cover image.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640583Distasteful I can deal with. Overt criminality aided and abetted, I can not. And as long as no children are in those games and no one is being touched, sucks to say, it isn't an issue except taste.

Ultimately, I agree, and to do otherwise brings into question every other questionable activity represented in RPGs.

Quote from: The Traveller;640617That to me looks like a grooming instruction manual, so here's what I'm going to do, being a firm believer in the philosophy that the best way to make something go away is to make it go away. I'm going to forward that photo along with the site description to these guys (https://tips.fbi.gov/) and we'll see what they have to say about the matter. Who knows, maybe they'll view it as art. I recommend everyone who feels similarly do the same.

That's...a BRILLIANT idea!

I think I'll be forwarding a link to this thread to these guys (http://www.gamestorm.org).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;640620I removed the photo pf the game's cover. If the other mods disagree it will go back up. But it seems like this image just doesnt belong on this site.

The problem is that the entire purpose of this thread is to validate the hate on the 'pedo' games which were being hawked at Gamestorm by Sarconsact's fellow vendors. And not having the image hurts that endeavor.

So thank you.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640708Realistic CG child porn is nothing but a difference in taste and it's not a battle worth fighting against, since no actual kids were harming in making it?

Um...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640133It's shocking that certain people can't see that difference a film (the latter), and an RPG (the former).  An RPG makes it personal.

So even you said they're different. Also if you choose to go down that particular rabbit hole you'll also have to fight against any media which features any characters which are harmed or exploited. In the meantime, to use your words against you...

It's shocking that certain people can't see that difference between harming a fictional character and a real person. A real person can actually suffer.

Quote from: Géza Echs;640908If I'd been at the con (and if I had the spare scratch - not something that happens too often these days) I totally would have bought one of your shirts.

Quote from: Géza Echs;640911Before this post I couldn't have imagined the sort of person who would disparage a person taking the time and effort to sell a product wherein all proceeds go to a worthy charity.

After this post I can imagine that sort of person.

You unbelievable asshole.

So says the person who just made an excuse as to why they didn't donate :rotfl:

I make plenty of donations, and I feel wearing that fact on your sleeve (or in this case t-shirt) to be in very bad taste. But I'm going to make an exception here. If Sacrosanct gives me an email, I'll PayPal $20 to his charity (no t-shirt necessary). I also expect all you other fucks who joined in this little hatefest to do the same.

I mean you don't have to, but there's only one of two outcomes here. The first is that Sacrosanct makes a little over a hundred for his charity (and has me to thank for it), or nobody donates anything and I can continue to treat them as the catty hypocritical shits they are. I'll post my Paypal receipt as soon as it's done.

Checkmate Bitches.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;641843Checkmate Bitches.

In wich reality? Oh. Yours. Not the actual reality, then. *whew*

Go troll yourself.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;641843Yes, this TOTALLY ADDRESSES THE SITUATION!

Irony alert.  Because:

QuoteI lost a grandfather to Cancer. But please, tell me that doesn't compare to losing two friends in 6 months.

Never claimed it did.  Or perhaps you can show me my quote that infers that.  The comparison you're trying to bring into this conversation

wait for it


DOES NOT ADDRESS THE SITUATION

QuoteNow let's recap shall we?

A poster by the name Sacrosanct (https://www.google.com/search?q=Sacrosanct) (Adjective: (esp. of a principle, place, or routine) Regarded as too important or valuable to be interfered with. Synonyms: sacred - holy - inviolable) starts a thread to play the Hero from the Mountain

I've been using this name on the internet for over 15 years.  Try again.  And try to avoid red herrings next time

Quoteand bring the word of Real Roleplaying to the people of the con (who are totally misled into believing that storygames are more popular just because they're selling better),

And strawmen

Quotecall his fellow vendors pedophiles,

I don't about a direct accusation of being pedophiles, but I stand my statements that having fun playing a game where you're an adult and you rape kids is pretty pedo in nature.

Quoteand then finally accuse the attendees of being indifferent to Cancer because they didn't donate to HIS specific charity to wear HIS specific T-Shirt.

Strawman again.  I said it was disappointing that a charity for cancer (any really, not just mine) had no interest while a game that role-plays pedo scenarios is.  I still stand by that.  It was less about supporting me (which I had already said earlier as well) and more about a game where you play a pedophile is popular.

QuoteYeah, that doesn't make you a sanctimonious asshole. At all.

I don't know about that, but I do know that you don't read threads you yourself get all sanctimonious about because most of this has has been discussed to death already.  I also know that you really, really suck at trying to have an argument or debate because you instantly rely on red herrings and strawmen to support whatever point you're trying to make.

QuoteSo are you saying that gamers give less of a shit about Cancer? And where you ask for donations has an effect. Maybe you should hit the local churches, or better yet the hospitals and introduce the kids there to gaming.

Seeing as how people who don't give a shit about gaming or games gave about 10x the support as gamers for a gaming related product in a gaming related environment, that sort of speaks for itself, don't it?

QuoteWhich game are you talking about? Also citation.


Missing evidence is missing.

Citations were already given.  Several times.  Again, you might want to start reading threads before getting all high and mighty in them.  

QuoteI think I'll be forwarding a link to this thread to these guys (http://www.gamestorm.org).



The problem is that the entire purpose of this thread is to validate the hate on the 'pedo' games which were being hawked at Gamestorm by Sarconsact's fellow vendors. And not having the image hurts that endeavor.

So thank you.

If that image wasn't deleted, you'd see just how much of an idiot you're being by defending it.  Or knowing you, probably not

QuoteCheckmate Bitches.

Indeed.  Obvious troll is obvious

Anon, before you reply with probably a lot more inaccuracies, let me give you a quick run down of what you're defending, because I don't think you fully realize just how that makes you look.

A title of a game called "Hot Guys Making Out"

By itself, no real big deal.

A cover of a half naked adult male intimately embracing what appears to be a 10 year old boy

That by itself is raising red flags.  That combined with the title?  Red flags galore.

And then you have the blurb about the game is about:

QuoteHot Guys Making Out is a passionate role-playing game, set in the Spanish Civil War, in which a tormented nobleman and his young ward attempt to resist their forbidden love for each other, and fail.

Sorry dude, but that has pedo written all over it.  Go ahead and forward this thread to Gamestorm.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;641843Yes, this TOTALLY ADDRESSES THE SITUATION!

Actually, yes, it does.

Why keep dropping by if all you want to do is be a site disruption?

First off, links to images of the shirts?

Secondly, not defending a game that I haven't played - but I have yet to see anything that is convincingly damning.  Ward is most often used in the context of a minor (ward of the state, ward of the court) in this country and this day and age.  But that's not the only definition.  I'm pretty sure that Robin (Bruce Wayne's ward) was supposed to be more than 18 (at least for most of his career in comic books).

The Guardian can enter into legal contracts; the ward cannot.  For young men of property, having someone handle their financial affairs until they were 'settled' was not considered improper.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;641862First off, links to images of the shirts?

My shirt?  It's my avatar

QuoteSecondly, not defending a game that I haven't played - but I have yet to see anything that is convincingly damning.  Ward is most often used in the context of a minor (ward of the state, ward of the court) in this country and this day and age.  But that's not the only definition.  I'm pretty sure that Robin (Bruce Wayne's ward) was supposed to be more than 18 (at least for most of his career in comic books).

The Guardian can enter into legal contracts; the ward cannot.  For young men of property, having someone handle their financial affairs until they were 'settled' was not considered improper.

Yet again, for what seems like the 100th time.  The cover clearly showed an adult male and very young boy.  I must ask, if this information has been presented several times, including the post right above yours, why do you continue to ignore it?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;641864My shirt?  It's my avatar

WTF? It's a pretty decent illo. Do you sell those shirts online, with profits going against cancer?

Quote from: Benoist;641885WTF? It's a pretty decent illo. Do you sell those shirts online, with profits going against cancer?

The front page here  (http://www.sacrosanctgames.com/)has a link to where you can customize it how you want it.  The ones at the convention (and the ones I physically have in stock) are all pink.  If it's something you think is actually decent, you may want to follow the link so you can get the type of shirt and color you want.  And yes, everything goes to the American Cancer Society.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;641857Anon, before you reply with probably a lot more inaccuracies, let me give you a quick run down of what you're defending, because I don't think you fully realize just how that makes you look.

A title of a game called "Hot Guys Making Out"

By itself, no real big deal.

A cover of a half naked adult male intimately embracing what appears to be a 10 year old boy

That by itself is raising red flags.  That combined with the title?  Red flags galore.

And then you have the blurb about the game is about:



Sorry dude, but that has pedo written all over it.  Go ahead and forward this thread to Gamestorm.

Don't forget the missing covers on the internet and backroom print jobs which indicate an awareness of and desire to avoid interstate child porn trafficking laws. Doesn't make it any less child porn but does show they know what they're peddling.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;641864Yet again, for what seems like the 100th time.  The cover clearly showed an adult male and very young boy.  I must ask, if this information has been presented several times, including the post right above yours, why do you continue to ignore it?

I don't find the analysis convincing.  If it is anime/manga style (which is not photo realistic) than some people can say it looks like a youth and others can claim it looks like an adult.  

Additionally, if the artist is different from the author (which is usually the case), some amount of difference in artistic vision is possible.  Compare, for instance the Star Wars movie poster to the characters in the movie...

What would be convincing is if the scenario provides ages for the characters.

But even that's not perfect.  According to society, having sex with a 17 year old the day before his/her 18th birthday is wrong, but the next day it is 'perfectly acceptable'.  That one extra day isn't magical.  Since we don't have panels to judge maturity prior to authorizing sexual relationships, a rather arbitrary line was chosen.

In my opinion, it would be wrong for me to pursue sexual relations with women 15 years my junior, but society says it's alright.  As long as no one is being hurt, I try to keep my moral indignation from getting in a wad.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;641920What would be convincing is if the scenario provides ages for the characters.

Googling for the game brings up playtest comments about Gonsalvo, the orphan who moves in with the nobleman Honoré, being sixteen. No idea whether there's room for adjustment, although it does seem like a very fixed scenario.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;641920I don't find the analysis convincing.  If it is anime/manga style (which is not photo realistic) than some people can say it looks like a youth and others can claim it looks like an adult.  

Additionally, if the artist is different from the author (which is usually the case), some amount of difference in artistic vision is possible.  Compare, for instance the Star Wars movie poster to the characters in the movie...

What would be convincing is if the scenario provides ages for the characters.

But even that's not perfect.  According to society, having sex with a 17 year old the day before his/her 18th birthday is wrong, but the next day it is 'perfectly acceptable'.  That one extra day isn't magical.  Since we don't have panels to judge maturity prior to authorizing sexual relationships, a rather arbitrary line was chosen.

In my opinion, it would be wrong for me to pursue sexual relations with women 15 years my junior, but society says it's alright.  As long as no one is being hurt, I try to keep my moral indignation from getting in a wad.

holy fuck.

Dude, there was no question it was an adultish male with a prepubescent boy.  I've explained what the cover looks like in fine detail.  That by itself is pretty fucking bad, but when you add it to the title and the basis of the game...there's no question.  Let me add you to the list of people who seem to be going out of their way to make up excuses for this sort of garbage.  For fuck's sake, you sound exactly like those NAMBLA sickos.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;641843So says the person who just made an excuse as to why they didn't donate :rotfl:

The excuse being that I wasn't at the convention...?

QuoteI make plenty of donations, and I feel wearing that fact on your sleeve (or in this case t-shirt) to be in very bad taste. But I'm going to make an exception here. If Sacrosanct gives me an email, I'll PayPal $20 to his charity (no t-shirt necessary). I also expect all you other fucks who joined in this little hatefest to do the same.

As I said, I'd be happy to donate to Sacrosanct's charity fundraiser.

QuoteI mean you don't have to, but there's only one of two outcomes here. The first is that Sacrosanct makes a little over a hundred for his charity (and has me to thank for it), or nobody donates anything and I can continue to treat them as the catty hypocritical shits they are. I'll post my Paypal receipt as soon as it's done.

Checkmate Bitches.

Considering what an asshole you were to him for daring to make a charity fundraiser via his t-shirts, I don't think he has to thank you for a Goddamned thing.

Man, I have to admit that I didn't hear about all of these sorts of games (Maid and the like) until I started coming here more regularly. I can't say I've ever seen a copy of any of the games that have been mentioned for sale in brick-and-mortar stores. I'm not the fun police for anybody, so, Hell, if playing these things is what you and your friends want to do with your free time then more power to you.

Can't say I'd ever be interested. Pedophilia or not, they at least come across to me as more than a bit distasteful. And I have to admit, if a buddy of mine said that he was really into one of these games I'd look at him like he'd just told me about the rousing session of RaHoWa he'd had on the weekend.

I haven't yet made it to a Gamestorm, despite the fact that I'm only about 60 miles away, but, I gotta ask:

What do the show organizers have to say about this?  Has anyone approached them?

I mean, really, you'd think that the convention staff wouldn't want someone's pedo-fantasy being marketed at their show.

And, if nobody has approached the organizers, why not?

Quote from: Géza Echs;641978As I said, I'd be happy to donate to Sacrosanct's charity fundraiser.

Only if the t-shirt is something you actually want.  Anon's post above to have me ask for his paypal account is pretty dumb, because if you don't want the shirt, I'd rather have you donate to the ACS (or another charity if you want) directly and skip the middle man (me).

So if you want my thanks Anon, donate money directly to them.

This is from my phone, so while I have time, this will no doubt be far less complete than I might hope.

I don't mean to come across as a pedo-apologist...  Nothing could be further from the truth.  But I get a strong 'if you don't join us in condemning these games, you must be a pedophile yourself' vibe - and that I flatly reject.

Firstly, I see RPGs as media.  The fact that some of it is distasteful is no reason to condemn the media itself.  I've never met anyone who refused to watch movies because of some hardcore bestiality movie that may or may not exist.  The fact that distasteful movies exist is not an indictment against the media - rather it shows the scope and flexibility of the media.  If anyone says, "aren't RPGs all about fulfilling some twisted pedo-fantasy?" my reply is simple: "that is not what my.games are about, and I've never played with anyone that plays those types of games."

Further, I reject the notion that we can self-police these kinds of games or gamers.  As the bar to self-publishing drops lower and lower, we'll see more of this kind of thing.  Unless (or until) someone crosses a line and actually produces something illegal, there isn't much you can do.  How do you shame someone who will proudly buy and admit to playing a distasteful game?

You can't.

But it's not all bad.  The fact that there are  people into hardcore BDSM doesn't ruin sex for me.  The fact that such people exist hasn't driven 'normal hetero sex' out of existence.  As long as you can find like-minded people, you can continue to do as you enjoy.

But these games do serve a beneficial purpose.  If deviants are drawn to them, you don't have to worry about them polluting the mainstream games with their deviant behavior.  Instead of doing something vile in D&D, they'll be playing something else.  Letting them splinter off to their own sick little corner of the hobby is good -it makes them less identified with the hobby, rather than moreso.

Sick people are doing to do  sick shit whether you approve or not.  If it's not illegal, don't worry about it.  Make your game awesome and that's what people will think of when they hear of RPGs.

Role-playing out the rape and/or sexual exploitation of children as a good/fun thing is not "OK if they do it with their own game" because it's not OK period.  Just because something might not technically be illegal does not make it OK.

How hard is this to understand?

I get that it's not okay.  It's the part where you think it's your job to police other tables that I object to.  Every table has a different culture.   Some people abhor violence, others consider orcish genocide a good night's game.  

Don't approve of sickos.  Don't condone them.  But since your plan to get rid of them consists of screaming on the interwebs, you're wasting your time and indignation.  By making yourself look like a buffoon, you only make the sickos look reasonable by comparison.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;642071I get that it's not okay.  It's the part where you think it's your job to police other tables that I object to.  Every table has a different culture.   Some people abhor violence, others consider orcish genocide a good night's game.  

Don't approve of sickos.  Don't condone them.  But since your plan to get rid of them consists of screaming on the interwebs, you're wasting your time and indignation.  By making yourself look like a buffoon, you only make the sickos look reasonable by comparison.

Once again, making an excuse to turn a blind eye to the fact that people are fantasizing about raping children.  Thanks for confirming.

JD makes a comment about how rape is an awesome plot device and makes pictures of dick animals.  Result?  He must be wiped off the face of the planet and never get work again.

Other people write RPGs about raping kids.  The result?  Ranging from "It's OK as long as no real kids are being raped" to "It's a fucking awesome game."


Am I really the only one here to find this messed up?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;642081Am I really the only one here to find this messed up?

You're not, but what's new with the "do as we say, not as we do" crowd?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;642081Other people write RPGs about raping kids.  The result?  Ranging from "It's OK as long as no real kids are being raped" to "It's a fucking awesome game."

Am I really the only one here to find this messed up?

Eh don't forget the 'report it to the FBI' brigade, with a member in good standing present.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;642081Am I really the only one here to find this messed up?

Absolutely not.

Excuse me, are you insinuating anything actionable against my character again, Traveller? Especially since I called you out last time for coloring me with libelous labels?
:nono:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;642081JD makes a comment about how rape is an awesome plot device and makes pictures of dick animals.  Result?  He must be wiped off the face of the planet and never get work again.

Nobody has yet addressed the use of rape of children and/or willing sexual activity by characters in 'A Game of Thrones'.  Is anyone willing to concede that an RPG can include some 'disturbing elements' without the players automatically being labelled as sickos?  One major advantage of an RPG over, say, a computer game, is that it can be adapted to any 'scenario' that the players and GM feel like exploring.  While that's not what I look for in my gaming, (I'm on record as preferring heroic fantasy), I'm not going to automatically fault players for 'unusual taste'.  

There's a difference between getting off on pedophilia and including it as an element in a game.  There's a difference between getting off on evil acts and playing a game where the players are the villains...  There's a difference between a fictional scenario and real life...  

If the players and GM at a particular table would like to explore the shades of gray with a heroic character with dark tendencies (which, in my opinion is totally legitimate), I don't automatically fault them.  Not everyone is comfortable with shades of gray - but that's what's on the big screen these days.  Iron Man isn't just a morally upright hero.  He's also kind of a dick.  So if a character wants to play a drug addict that is trying to save the world but can't resist the next hit; or a priest that is trying to do the right thing but can't resist his alter server - I'm not going to approve, but I will withhold judgement.  Unless I'm at the table and know exactly what's going on, I think that's fair.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;642081Other people write RPGs about raping kids.  The result?  Ranging from "It's OK as long as no real kids are being raped" to "It's a fucking awesome game."

Or, you know, like I said: it's distasteful.  But you know, keep talking about it.  You'll make sure that this website is considered a good place to go to find out about the latest sicko games.  This is already the best play to learn about Maid and Hot Guys Making Out.  So, you know, keep on telling people why the games are abhorrent - then people that like those aspects will keep coming here and they'll learn all about the games you don't like and decide to pick them up.  It's a form of reverse marketing.  It's effective, I suppose.  So, if you're really indignant about these games, why do you keep publicizing them?  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;642081Am I really the only one here to find this messed up?

No.  Clearly no.  You're just the ring-leader of the ones failing to actually do one single productive thing to disassociate these types of games from our hobby.

Deadmanwalking, I think you are really reaching here. There is definitely something seriously creepy, pervie and pedo about the game in question....and sacro's argument is spot on. This game isn't dealing with a real issue in a serious way, its celebrating it (at the very least doesn't seem to get that its a roblem).

If people want to continue to talk about whether the game is creepy that is fine, but if you want to be a child porn apologist take it somewhere else (and I am not talking about questioning whether a game cover qualifies, I am talking about people sayings its okay if they are cartoons or if no one is hurt). I am going to close this thread if that happens. Keep it about games.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;642127Nobody has yet addressed the use of rape of children and/or willing sexual activity by characters in 'A Game of Thrones'.  Is anyone willing to concede that an RPG can include some 'disturbing elements' without the players automatically being labelled as sickos?  One major advantage of an RPG over, say, a computer game, is that it can be adapted to any 'scenario' that the players and GM feel like exploring.  While that's not what I look for in my gaming, (I'm on record as preferring heroic fantasy), I'm not going to automatically fault players for 'unusual taste'.  

For someone who keeps saying, "It's not my personal taste", you are going a long way to make excuses for this stuff, and more importantly continue to ignore over and over again key factors.  You kept ignoring what the cover actually depicted, and now you're continuing to ignore what people have said several times the difference between something like GoT, and a game where a key aspect is the players being the ones acting out the rape of children.  Bad things can be part of an overall plot, but that's a WILD difference than being someone who actively fantasizes about it.

QuoteThere's a difference between getting off on pedophilia and including it as an element in a game.  There's a difference between getting off on evil acts and playing a game where the players are the villains...  There's a difference between a fictional scenario and real life...  

Newsflash.  Actual children being raped isn't the line where something becomes abhorrent.  Fantasizing about raping and/or abusing children is also abhorrent.  End.  Stop.

QuoteIf the players and GM at a particular table would like to explore the shades of gray with a heroic character with dark tendencies (which, in my opinion is totally legitimate), I don't automatically fault them.  Not everyone is comfortable with shades of gray - but that's what's on the big screen these days.  Iron Man isn't just a morally upright hero.  He's also kind of a dick.  So if a character wants to play a drug addict that is trying to save the world but can't resist the next hit; or a priest that is trying to do the right thing but can't resist his alter server - I'm not going to approve, but I will withhold judgement.  Unless I'm at the table and know exactly what's going on, I think that's fair.  

Iron man doesn't fantasize about sexually abusing children either.  You seriously are trying to make this as an equal comparison?  That begs the question, since you continue to do this, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"

QuoteOr, you know, like I said: it's distasteful.  But you know, keep talking about it.  You'll make sure that this website is considered a good place to go to find out about the latest sicko games.  This is already the best play to learn about Maid and Hot Guys Making Out.  So, you know, keep on telling people why the games are abhorrent - then people that like those aspects will keep coming here and they'll learn all about the games you don't like and decide to pick them up.  It's a form of reverse marketing.  It's effective, I suppose.  So, if you're really indignant about these games, why do you keep publicizing them?  

Yeah, the ol "if you're complaining about it, it just makes it more successful, so you should just keep quiet."

You're really coming off as an apologist here.  Child sexploitation should never be ignored.  Do you get it?  Never.  This is not a gray area.  Fantasizing about child sexploitation should never be ignored, and if I seem worked up about, it's because I happen to think that sexploitation of children is one of those things worth getting riled up about.

I know that might have been cross-posted with Brendan, but frankly i don't care.

Good luck with selling your t-shirts Sac.

However, this thread has long since gone beyond saving.

Feel free to start another thread about RPG charity work.