Quote from: jeff37923;640709If you have no interest in slinging mud at Teenagers From Outer Space, then why in the fuck are you comparing it to a game where...

I'm not. In fact, the only thing I've said about HGMO in this thread is that I don't know anything about it beyond the title. I would, however, be interested in hearing what the crucial difference between TFOS and PE is supposed to be.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;640620I removed the photo pf the game's cover. If the other mods disagree it will go back up. But it seems like this image just doesnt belong on this site.

If you feel an image is inappropriate, please dont post it to demonstrate that it is.

The image is not pornographic per se, and I think you may have been a little premature in removing it; but at the same time the last thing we need is escalation, and for that matter the last thing I want is to inadvertently promote this asshole's game.  So we'll have your judgment call stand in this case, but without any prejudice toward the person who posted it.

RPGPundit

Could it be turned into a clickable link instead of an autodisplaying image?

I for one am happy that it is not posted, and would rather not see it.  

I think I'm of the same general opinion as Opaopajr.  

Firstly, I see a movie and a book (portraying a fictional universe) as legitimate forms of artistic expression, and sometimes bad things happen that are legitimate for the expression of that story.  As an example, I am not a fan of George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones.  I read a couple of the books (maybe three) at the urging of my then room-mate.  I like escapist fantasy.  If I want to read about rape and murder, I'll take it from the main-stream news, thank you very much.  But clearly, when George R. R. Martin is describing sexual situations with Danerys (sp?) and her husband, he is not a teenage girl.  As an author, he is portraying a story that has questionable content at the very least.  I'm sure that there are some people who read those passages with a raging boner, and there are others that are sickened by it.  He felt it made sense for the characters and the story.  

RPGs are different than movies or books, but they're not THAT different.  I have played RPGs that had all the players take established roles from characters in fiction (happened to be Dragonlance, and there was no pedo bullshit there).  I can see similar types of games set in the Game of Thrones world - and that would necessarily involve some unpleasant activities if you're playing your character 'correctly'.  

That's the thing about characters - they don't have to represent the 'real you'.  Sometimes you play a villain (an evil drow with all the depravity it demands) and that doesn't NECESSARILY MAKE YOU A SICK FUCK.  If all your characters are demented even if it doesn't make sense for the character than you're pretty clearly on the far side of that line.  

Now, for myself, I am a father of two daughters (age 5 and 2).  I am not a pedo.  I want to protect them from pedos.  It's a constant worry.  But I can see that a gamer playing a questionable game doesn't make them automatically a pedo.  

In a campaign that I'm currently playing, the GM insisted that we all be 'local yokels' in a 'zero to hero' story set in a dark fantasy world with some horror elements.  Per the character creation guidelines, my character is a 16-year-old male.  I do not play the character in a sexual way (as in, he has not attempted to have actual intercourse with any NPCs or other players).  But, if anybody here has been a 16-year-old boy before, they should be aware that sex and sexuality are a big part of the biology of that age.  When my character found an illustrated book that described many fey creatures, the first thing he did was have a careful trace made of the 'nymph' page, and he keeps it with him nearly all the time.  His big plan is to marry a 14-year-old girl from his village (her father is the local priest).  

Now, I could have decided that he's only interested in older women, but then that creates the whole statutory rape situation.  Or I could have decided that he is completely asexual, but that would ignore a whole important part of a character's psyche.  

The fact is, it's much like Buffy (not that I've seen much of it).  Nobody cares that these are 'supposed to be teens' and nobody is getting off on anything.  It's just people playing a game.  We kill monsters and try to play our characters 'appropriately' - and that means doing what the character would do if they were a real live person in the situation that we encounter - but not if it were me!!!  I'd probably run away from most of these things - I have a family that I need to protect and getting offed by a tentacle horror doesn't fit well in those plans.  

There are probably some terrible people that play roleplaying games - in fact, I'm sure of it.  There are also terrible people who play computer games.  Not everyone who plays World of Warcraft is also on 4Chan.  

If we let the outside world define RPG gamers by our worst element, we're doing ourselves a disservice.  There are bad RPG gamers - there will always be bad RPG gamers.  Just like there are bad priests and will always be some bad priests - it doesn't mean that they're all bad.  

I can understand why a game like MAID wouldn't appeal to everyone.  I know it doesn't appeal to me.  But Yann Waters, who seems to be the only one is very familiar with the game, makes some very plausible statements about how the game does not ENCOURAGE a particular play style.  

Since I know that D&D (any edition) also doesn't encourage sexual relations with underage characters but could be used that way, I don't think it necessarily means the game is sick - it just draws a higher percentage of sick gamers.  

I still think that spending time talking about 'niche games' in 'mainstream circles' does more to 'normalize' those games than simply ignoring them.  Unless the point is to warn people away - but even then, I think it's mostly unnecessary.  I've known enough people that are 'off' that play mainstream games that I'm always careful around new gamers - I'd hope everyone has the same level of caution.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640006Well, the Con is over.  Didn't go as well as I'd have hoped (I thought for sure out of a few thousand gamers, more than 2 would have been interested in supporting the fight against cancer.  $20 for what I think is a cool looking shirt and everything goes to American Cancer Society?  Guess I was way off on that one).

But there were a lot of lessons learned where I could have done better.  Too bad my helpers had to back out, because having games run continuously in the game room accounts for about 3/4 of all sales, so I missed out on all of that.  On the good news front, I only smelled body odor two or three times, so there weren't very many Cat Piss Men around.  That was good.  And I met some good people.  But the best part?

It was this morning when an 11 year old boy came up to my booth, shyly at first, with one of my RPG books and both of my Choose Your Own Adventure books under his arm and was just gushing about how awesome they were.  Made the whole thing worth it.  No one is in this business to get rich, but if you can spur the imagination of a child and see that wonder on their face?

Totally worth it.

If I'd been at the con (and if I had the spare scratch - not something that happens too often these days) I totally would have bought one of your shirts. Keep fighting the good fight; I'm glad you got to end off the whole thing on a reassuring note via the little man! Good on you.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047Fuck you and your shitty shirt and you using cancer as a crutch for your fucking self rigorousness and petty ego. If the only thing moving your product is a deadly disease you may want to rethink your marketing as opposed to disparaging the moral fiber of those gamers who just weren't interested in your crap.

Before this post I couldn't have imagined the sort of person who would disparage a person taking the time and effort to sell a product wherein all proceeds go to a worthy charity.

After this post I can imagine that sort of person.

You unbelievable asshole.

Quote from: Géza Echs;640911Before this post I couldn't have imagined the sort of person who would disparage a person taking the time and effort to sell a product wherein all proceeds go to a worthy charity.

After this post I can imagine that sort of person.

You unbelievable asshole.

You may have noticed that my response to him was lacking of my usual knee-jerk rage.  That is because when someone goes that far, I am convinced that they are just trolling.

Y'know, trolling is what immediately comes to mind about a lot of this and how to deal with it. There was tons of juvenile crap from players in the White Wolf market, trying to be more edgier than thou and attempting to be more risqué than anything Black Dog put out. But that's not what White Wolf is all about, nor are its players.

It's like stupid kids going through the motions of what it means to be rebellious, killing puppies for Satan and trying to be so in your face.

And yet at the end of the day, the worst thing to do is yawn in their face and ignore them. Ther's cache in the outré; there's none in looking pathetic and being dismissed.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;640853I can understand why a game like MAID wouldn't appeal to everyone.  I know it doesn't appeal to me.  But Yann Waters, who seems to be the only one is very familiar with the game, makes some very plausible statements about how the game does not ENCOURAGE a particular play style.

Incidentally, Ryo Kamiya who designed Maid went on a few years later to make Yuuyake Koyake, a non-violent "feelgood" game about magical animals who can take on the form of human children in order to help the people of a small countryside town with their everyday problems. Here is the new Tabletop Day demo document for the English version that's currently being prepared under the title of Golden Sky Stories.

And no, there's nothing questionable about it.

HE HAS RISEN!

Quote from: One Horse Town;640048

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;640047You know, while the pedophilia DOES bug me, I still find indie gamers who play (or at least own) those games to be far more fun, respectful, adaptable, insightful, and helpful than the folks into classic RPGs. There's a reason the D&D forum on RPG.net is a warzone, and it's largely because of D&D. So if you don't want non-gamers to get the wrong idea, maybe you should address THAT issue first.

As fun as it is to see you drive by every couple of months to drop your pronouncements on threads, if you're not enjoying it, maybe you should stop.

Yes, this TOTALLY ADDRESSES THE SITUATION!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640084I've had two friends die from it just in the past 6 months.  This has nothing to do with my ego.

I lost a grandfather to Cancer. But please, tell me that doesn't compare to losing two friends in 6 months.

Now let's recap shall we?

A poster by the name Sacrosanct (Adjective: (esp. of a principle, place, or routine) Regarded as too important or valuable to be interfered with. Synonyms: sacred - holy - inviolable) starts a thread to play the Hero from the Mountain and bring the word of Real Roleplaying to the people of the con (who are totally misled into believing that storygames are more popular just because they're selling better), call his fellow vendors pedophiles, and then finally accuse the attendees of being indifferent to Cancer because they didn't donate to HIS specific charity to wear HIS specific T-Shirt.

Yeah, that doesn't make you a sanctimonious asshole. At all.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640084Oh, and the reason why I said I was disappointed in sales is because when I first started doing this, I've had about 10x the number of non gamers support this.  So forgive me for thinking a gamer-themed shirt would do better in a gamer themed event, and not be 1/10th as successful as compared to those people who don't give a shit about games.

So are you saying that gamers give less of a shit about Cancer? And where you ask for donations has an effect. Maybe you should hit the local churches, or better yet the hospitals and introduce the kids there to gaming.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640448Even if you don't play the game as encouraged by raping kids

Which game are you talking about? Also citation.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640448And this is the part that throws me off, because the same person doing this in a game of Maid:

"I rub my huge breasts up and down his face..."

is also the same person on various forums who has said this:

"You checked out my boobs at a con*?  That's fucking rape man!  You're raping me!  You just don't see it because of your privilege."

That seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Missing evidence is missing.

But this TOTALLY represents every Maid player out there, and maybe even every female gamer too!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640448*because you wore a shirt under your corset that said "BOOBIES" in large print.  At the Con I was just at, there seemed to be a lot of women who wore shirts like that, or ones with a set of d20s with the 20 showing right where the boobs are and the word "Natural" right under them.  There was a lot of clothing like that.

Perhaps you'd be more successful with a t-shirt for breast cancer then.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640480I was a bit mistaken.  the kid isn't naked.

The fact you had to overstate your argument in the first place undermines your point.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640480Yeah, that's what I stared at all weekend, and watched them fly off the shelves.

I guess your fellow convention goers ARE dirty pedophiles then. Or maybe the fault lies in your own inability to move product.

Quote from: The Yann Waters;640488Panty Explosion is about high school girls, but not (despite the title) about their sex lives, and nothing prevents you from playing students on their last year. I still don't have any clear idea what Hot Guys Making Out is about.

This doesn't do your side of the argument any favors, as Panty Explosion isn't about 'panties' either, and HGMO makes its subject matter very obvious in both its title, description, and cover image.

Quote from: Opaopajr;640583Distasteful I can deal with. Overt criminality aided and abetted, I can not. And as long as no children are in those games and no one is being touched, sucks to say, it isn't an issue except taste.

Ultimately, I agree, and to do otherwise brings into question every other questionable activity represented in RPGs.

Quote from: The Traveller;640617That to me looks like a grooming instruction manual, so here's what I'm going to do, being a firm believer in the philosophy that the best way to make something go away is to make it go away. I'm going to forward that photo along with the site description to these guys and we'll see what they have to say about the matter. Who knows, maybe they'll view it as art. I recommend everyone who feels similarly do the same.

That's...a BRILLIANT idea!

I think I'll be forwarding a link to this thread to these guys.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;640620I removed the photo pf the game's cover. If the other mods disagree it will go back up. But it seems like this image just doesnt belong on this site.

The problem is that the entire purpose of this thread is to validate the hate on the 'pedo' games which were being hawked at Gamestorm by Sarconsact's fellow vendors. And not having the image hurts that endeavor.

So thank you.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640708Realistic CG child porn is nothing but a difference in taste and it's not a battle worth fighting against, since no actual kids were harming in making it?

Um...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640133It's shocking that certain people can't see that difference a film (the latter), and an RPG (the former).  An RPG makes it personal.

So even you said they're different. Also if you choose to go down that particular rabbit hole you'll also have to fight against any media which features any characters which are harmed or exploited. In the meantime, to use your words against you...

It's shocking that certain people can't see that difference between harming a fictional character and a real person. A real person can actually suffer.

Quote from: Géza Echs;640908If I'd been at the con (and if I had the spare scratch - not something that happens too often these days) I totally would have bought one of your shirts.

Quote from: Géza Echs;640911Before this post I couldn't have imagined the sort of person who would disparage a person taking the time and effort to sell a product wherein all proceeds go to a worthy charity.

After this post I can imagine that sort of person.

You unbelievable asshole.

So says the person who just made an excuse as to why they didn't donate :rotfl:

I make plenty of donations, and I feel wearing that fact on your sleeve (or in this case t-shirt) to be in very bad taste. But I'm going to make an exception here. If Sacrosanct gives me an email, I'll PayPal $20 to his charity (no t-shirt necessary). I also expect all you other fucks who joined in this little hatefest to do the same.

I mean you don't have to, but there's only one of two outcomes here. The first is that Sacrosanct makes a little over a hundred for his charity (and has me to thank for it), or nobody donates anything and I can continue to treat them as the catty hypocritical shits they are. I'll post my Paypal receipt as soon as it's done.

Checkmate Bitches.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;641843Checkmate Bitches.

In wich reality? Oh. Yours. Not the actual reality, then. *whew*

Go troll yourself.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;641843Yes, this TOTALLY ADDRESSES THE SITUATION!

Irony alert.  Because:

QuoteI lost a grandfather to Cancer. But please, tell me that doesn't compare to losing two friends in 6 months.

Never claimed it did.  Or perhaps you can show me my quote that infers that.  The comparison you're trying to bring into this conversation

wait for it


DOES NOT ADDRESS THE SITUATION

QuoteNow let's recap shall we?

A poster by the name Sacrosanct (Adjective: (esp. of a principle, place, or routine) Regarded as too important or valuable to be interfered with. Synonyms: sacred - holy - inviolable) starts a thread to play the Hero from the Mountain

I've been using this name on the internet for over 15 years.  Try again.  And try to avoid red herrings next time

Quoteand bring the word of Real Roleplaying to the people of the con (who are totally misled into believing that storygames are more popular just because they're selling better),

And strawmen

Quotecall his fellow vendors pedophiles,

I don't about a direct accusation of being pedophiles, but I stand my statements that having fun playing a game where you're an adult and you rape kids is pretty pedo in nature.

Quoteand then finally accuse the attendees of being indifferent to Cancer because they didn't donate to HIS specific charity to wear HIS specific T-Shirt.

Strawman again.  I said it was disappointing that a charity for cancer (any really, not just mine) had no interest while a game that role-plays pedo scenarios is.  I still stand by that.  It was less about supporting me (which I had already said earlier as well) and more about a game where you play a pedophile is popular.

QuoteYeah, that doesn't make you a sanctimonious asshole. At all.

I don't know about that, but I do know that you don't read threads you yourself get all sanctimonious about because most of this has has been discussed to death already.  I also know that you really, really suck at trying to have an argument or debate because you instantly rely on red herrings and strawmen to support whatever point you're trying to make.

QuoteSo are you saying that gamers give less of a shit about Cancer? And where you ask for donations has an effect. Maybe you should hit the local churches, or better yet the hospitals and introduce the kids there to gaming.

Seeing as how people who don't give a shit about gaming or games gave about 10x the support as gamers for a gaming related product in a gaming related environment, that sort of speaks for itself, don't it?

QuoteWhich game are you talking about? Also citation.


Missing evidence is missing.

Citations were already given.  Several times.  Again, you might want to start reading threads before getting all high and mighty in them.  

QuoteI think I'll be forwarding a link to this thread to these guys.



The problem is that the entire purpose of this thread is to validate the hate on the 'pedo' games which were being hawked at Gamestorm by Sarconsact's fellow vendors. And not having the image hurts that endeavor.

So thank you.

If that image wasn't deleted, you'd see just how much of an idiot you're being by defending it.  Or knowing you, probably not

QuoteCheckmate Bitches.

Indeed.  Obvious troll is obvious

Anon, before you reply with probably a lot more inaccuracies, let me give you a quick run down of what you're defending, because I don't think you fully realize just how that makes you look.

A title of a game called "Hot Guys Making Out"

By itself, no real big deal.

A cover of a half naked adult male intimately embracing what appears to be a 10 year old boy

That by itself is raising red flags.  That combined with the title?  Red flags galore.

And then you have the blurb about the game is about:

QuoteHot Guys Making Out is a passionate role-playing game, set in the Spanish Civil War, in which a tormented nobleman and his young ward attempt to resist their forbidden love for each other, and fail.

Sorry dude, but that has pedo written all over it.  Go ahead and forward this thread to Gamestorm.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;641843Yes, this TOTALLY ADDRESSES THE SITUATION!

Actually, yes, it does.

Why keep dropping by if all you want to do is be a site disruption?

First off, links to images of the shirts?

Secondly, not defending a game that I haven't played - but I have yet to see anything that is convincingly damning.  Ward is most often used in the context of a minor (ward of the state, ward of the court) in this country and this day and age.  But that's not the only definition.  I'm pretty sure that Robin (Bruce Wayne's ward) was supposed to be more than 18 (at least for most of his career in comic books).

The Guardian can enter into legal contracts; the ward cannot.  For young men of property, having someone handle their financial affairs until they were 'settled' was not considered improper.