I thought I'd start a thread here to record my thoughts and impressions on the Grindhouse Edition of the Lamentations of the Flame Princess RPG, which I have just found on my doorstep.  Think of this thread as a review-in-progress and feel free to ask any questions or ask for clarification of anything I write about it.  

First, I want to talk about the physical object that is Lamentations of the Flame Princess.  The Grindhouse Edition is a box set.  It's a bit smaller than the BECMI box sets of my youth, and it opens from the side instead of having a lift-up box cover.  I'm not sure how sturdy the box would prove if it's transported to-and-from gaming sessions for a long while, but it seems like it will certainly stand up to normal shelfware.

Speaking of the box, god-damn does it have a great piece of art for the cover.  This is what I am talking about.  I find that terribly evocative of the kind of game this promises to be: harrowing, uncanny, and grimly heroic.  I've seen at least one person complain that this piece is too "static," but I see it as the a frozen moment, almost like bullet-time in cinema--the pause right before the bloodspray.  (I will say, though, that my box art is reproduced much darker than the picture I liked to of the previous Deluxe Edition.  A bit of detail is lost, I'm afraid.)

Inside the box are three digest-size books.  They feel really nice when you hold them in your hand; they feel readable and not like text books.  In general, I'm really liking the digest size for gaming books: they fit better in bags and they are much more ergonomically comfortable in a range of situations where you might sit down and read a book.  They also take up less space at the table, which is handy for people who don't have a big gaming area.

The box also contains a bunch of character sheets and a really tiny set of dice.  While the dice are nice, I am leery of bringing to the table lest a player mistake them for Skittles.

The three books are a labeled Tutorial, Rules and Magic, and Referee.  The covers on all three are rather nice as well: the tutorial book has a Fu-Manchu looking villain setting a Lovecraftian beast on some hapless victim; the rules and magic book has a red-headed pilgrim (presumably the younger version of the woman from the box cover) brandishing a sword against an unseen assailant; and the refree book has an Otis-esque illustration of a winged monster confronting a hooded figure before a charnel bonfire that could have been ripped straight from the cover of Weird Tales.

I like all three covers, but some might grouse that they don't really "match" or display a consistent "brand identity."  Fuck 'em.  To me, this sends a message that there are many different flavors of weird fantasy that you can play with in this game.  To me, the the Rules and Magic cover says, "You want colonial survival horror against the beasts of the blackened wild?  Go for it," the Tutorial cover says, "You want fin de siecle fantasy with Orientalist villains and the perils of the unknowable East?  Go for it," and the Referee cover says, "You want to capture the feel of Algernon Blackwood's 'The Wendigo'?  Go for it."

This is an exciting box to open, people.  I'm already getting ideas that my players will both like and hate.

I will start with the Tutorial, dig in, and report back.

The first thing that greets you when you crack the Tutorial book is a zombie-fied spin on the warning from Dante's Inferno: Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here becomes Enter Ye Damned. That's probably the most honest introduction to the hobby you're likely to get.

Next up is the obligatory "What is a Role-Playing Game" section. (No question mark after that statement?) James Raggi writes this section in a very conversational tone. There's nothing high-minded about how he describes what you do in a role-playing game; this is straight-forward, no bullshit, and rather like hearing someone who loves role-playing games tell you what they are all about. That's actually what I enjoyed about this section: it both gives a solid overview of what rpgs are and manages to impart the author's enthusiasm for how they are played.

Dice (and how to roll them) get a whole page of description; not only does Raggi introduce what 2d6+2 means, he also includes a little commentary on people's little dice rituals.

Next up is Your First Adventure, a pre-scripted solo adventure that is meant to introduce many of the game's central concepts. In this section we learn about Ability Scores, how to roll to see if you hit in combat, Saving Throws, Hit Points, etc. This adventure reminded me quite a bit of the solo adventure at the front of the red box Basic D&D set. SPOILER:

Spoiler

as in the red box, don't get too attached to your cleric pal.

There is a lot to love about Your First Adventure. One thing I really thought added some value here was that Raggi doesn't just introduce the mechanics of the game, he also introduces many conventions native to gaming itself, such as the kind of exposition you'd find in a published module, the deadliness of old-school D&D games, etc. Similarly, this section does a fine job of introducing the flavor of Lamentations of the Flame Princess; for example, this flavorful snippet--"As you reach the street you notice the men, about a dozen in all, following you. And there you walk, a macabre procession honoring the dead, with the still-smoldering corpse of the deceased in your arms"--let's you know that this is a game far darker than the average high fantasy pastiche.

To sum up what we know about the game mechanics so far from this section: it uses the six "standard" D&D attributes, it has Hit Points, Armor Class, and Saving Throws, and it is a class-based system. (I think there may be a gaff in the text at one point: on page 13, during the final fight, the text tells you that you have 8 Hit Points left, but the cleric had just healed you two pages back; you should be at 10 Hit Points as per page 11. That might confuse new players a bit.)

I'll read the Second Adventure tonight and report back!

Interesting so far. My only beef with LotFP is that it says it's about weird roleplaying, but the rules aren't that different from Swords & Wizardry. The art is pretty cool, though.

Quote from: danbuter;456316Interesting so far. My only beef with LotFP is that it says it's about weird roleplaying, but the rules aren't that different from Swords & Wizardry. The art is pretty cool, though.

It's accurate to say that the weird isn't a feature of the rules exactly.  (Though I would point to the difference in subtle difference in spells between LotFP and other retro-clones;instead of "Fireball" or "Lightning Bolt" you get things like "Witchlight Aura" and "Weird Vortex.")

Rather, it's a matter of the suggestions, flavor, and inspirations that make the game one of Weird Fantasy.

I hope at some point Raggi releases some kind of Weird Fantasy setting.

Call of Cthulhu by Chaosium to look at the rules is basically BRP plus Sanity, no major Cthulhuish rules changes.  The writers of the book did an excellent job in how they presented the game and it's supplements.

Let's get real though - on the cover of every book is CTHULHU, which comes with thousands of pages of setting written by HPL and others.

Without the setting to draw on, the CoC products wouldn't have been anywhere near as evocative.

As is, LotFP is basically "Watch or read these inspiration sources, then go make something like it." and there's nothing wrong with that, but nothing instructs as well as examples, and a good setting example would instruct the best.

The difference with Call of Cthulhu is that it includes the short story, all of the NPC's and monsters shown are from the stories (including other authors), and the "classes" and spells make sense compared to the stories.

LotFP did adjust the spell list a bit, which is good. But everything else is S&W, with some tweaks. I really think that if he included a monster book, he could have dramatically influenced the feel of the game.

Further thoughts on the Tutorial...

I've just played The Second Adventure, which I was both pleased and surprised to discover follows up on a plot point from the first solo adventure. I'd liken the difference between the first solo adventure and the second to the difference between a Choose Your Own Adventure book and something like a book from Steve Jackson's Sorcery! series. The second adventure definitely gives you more autonomy, though you're still picking from pre-scripted choices. Again, the adventure itself has a particular Weird Fantasy flavor; it's all a bit "survival horror," as you race against the clock to find a cure for a zombie infection.

More importantly, the second adventure does give a better feel for what it is like to play in an actual RPG adventure; things such as mapping a dungeon, searching for items and hidden doors, and rolling for initiative get introduced here, so the complexity of the game is building slowly but surely. It's definitely presented in a way that is designed to not be overwhelming.

The next sections of the book probably could have been integrated into one "chapter" because they all essentially cover additional details about things to think about when you're gathering a group of people to get together and game. I like Raggi's focus on the social aspect of rpgs; he stresses finding an appropriate place to game, having snacks as part of the experience, and not playing your character like a jerk and dismissing it with that old stand-by "but that's what my character would do!"

I also like the emphasis in this section on rulings-over-rules, how it's totally cool to have house rules, and that it's not cool to have an in-real-life argument over a rules call. Some might raise their eyebrows at the section on winning and losing in a rpg, but as Raggi notes, as long as you're having fun, you're winning.

Next up is 20 page (!!!) example of play. Will my eyes glaze over? We'll see.

Quote from: danbuter;456351LotFP did adjust the spell list a bit, which is good. But everything else is S&W, with some tweaks. I really think that if he included a monster book, he could have dramatically influenced the feel of the game.

I can see what you mean, but instead of a full on monster book I'd rather there was a scaled-back version of Raggi's Esoteric Monster Generator in there.  That way their would be a codified list of monsters (which defeats the purpose of weird), but still gives you a better feel for how to make your own for your particular game.

Quote from: danbuter;456316Interesting so far. My only beef with LotFP is that it says it's about weird roleplaying, but the rules aren't that different from Swords & Wizardry. The art is pretty cool, though.

Notwithstanding the obvious and abundantly documented virtues of LotFP as is, this is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to Newt "Openquest" Newport's Crypts & Things. It's seems he's taken a few tools to the S&W Core engine to bring it closer to his vision of weird fantasy (linky).

Quote from: misterguignol;456362I can see what you mean, but instead of a full on monster book I'd rather there was a scaled-back version of Raggi's Esoteric Monster Generator in there.  That way their would be a codified list of monsters (which defeats the purpose of weird), but still gives you a better feel for how to make your own for your particular game.

Is there a link to this monster generator somewhere?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;456434Is there a link to this monster generator somewhere?

RPGPundit

http://www.goodman-games.com/4375preview.html

There's a link to some sample pages at the bottom.

Thanks for that! Very interesting.

RPGPundit

The Generator is a pretty cool book.

Well, I was right: it's a bit of a slog to make it through twenty pages of an "example of play."  While I certainly think that an example of what it looks like when people gather around a table to play a rpg has merit--and similarly see the utility in showing that a total party kill can be fun--this is simply too long to really be a worthwhile use of pages.  

Also, while "Enrico" is an all-too-accurate depiction of some annoying gamers out there, making player-GM antagonism part of your example of play runs the risk of sending the wrong signal.

The next section, "Recommended Reading," is the one I approached with the most trepidation.  I'm going to admit my biases upfront here: I teach "Gothic" and "weird" literature at a university, so I have a number of pet peeves when it comes to how authors and their works are presented.

Overall, though, this section has a lot to recommend it.  It covers Clive Barker, Robert E. Howard, Fritz Lieber, H.P. Lovecraft, Edgar Allan Poe, Clark Ashton Smith, J.R.R. Tolkien, Jack Vance, Jules Verne, and H.G. Wells.  There's a lot of variety in that list; to my mind, it gives a good cross-section of a variety of weird literature, which again emphasizes that there are many flavors of the weird that you can pursue with Lamentations of the Flame Princess.

I also liked James Raggi's insistence on reading these texts over watching film adaptations of them.  Right on.

There are, however, a few things I really didn't like in this section.  For one, I wish the entries on each author followed a standardized format.  The entry on Clive Barker worked really well; I especially liked how it ended with recommendations for where to start reading in his rather large literary output, and where to look next once you're "stuck in," so to speak.  It would have been handy if every author's entry featured a starting point and pointed you in a concrete direction because many of these writers have left huge literary corpuses that can be utterly daunting to a new reader.

There are a few instances in these entries where the writers make the make of associating the authors too closely with their works.  We're told, for example, that Clive Barker's "stories are informed by his openly homosexual orientation," but this is a statement that substitutes personal detail for substantiation.  By my reckoning, Barker writers as often (if not more often) about heterosexual people as he does gay people.  Furthermore, if his fiction is so informed by his sexual orientation, why were so many horror fans shocked to learn that Barker is a gay man back in the 90s?

The final thing I'll harp on is the one that really drives me up a wall.  Edgar Allan Poe's name is consistently spelled Edgar Allen Poe throughout this section, with the exception of his section heading.  That's just a careless, amateurish mistake.  Always check your spelling, especially with proper names that a spellcheck won't catch!

In an ideal world, I'd like to see the "Example of Play" condensed to make even more room for other suggested inspirations.  It would be interesting to see a similar treatment given to inspirational films (The Brotherhood of the Wolf, The Wicker Man, and Hammer Horror, perhaps?) as well as a few examples of recommended music to set the weird fantasy mood.  Perhaps even a few more authors.  (I'd definitely through Arthur Machen in there.)  Hell, I'm tempted to throw together a pdf of such things just to further the weird fantasy feel for anyone who is looking for more grist for the imaginative mill.  

A final note before moving on to the Rules and Magic book: the art in the Tutorial is pretty awesome.  I may not be in love with every piece, but I love the gritty, grotty feel of the illustrations.

Quote from: misterguignol;456776The final thing I'll harp on is the one that really drives me up a wall.  Edgar Allan Poe's name is consistently spelled Edgar Allen Poe throughout this section, with the exception of his section heading.

Shit.