Quote from: RPGPunditIts worth remembering that Blackmoor, the other "original D&D setting" besides Greyhawk, had a lot in common with the Wilderlands already, and was certainly this kind of setting.  So D&D can certainly claim to be "going back to roots" with this implied setting without any need to steal from the Wilderlands, which as has been correctly pointed out is only one (albeit really stellar) example of a rather common old-school theme.

RPGPundit

It's not common, I don't think, the case of Blackmoor to the contrary. JG actually published it, and linked it to the Wilderlands via the Valley of the Ancients, so clearly there's a kindred spirit. But what else is there?

Greyhawk, which for quite a while was THE D&D setting, is very different indeed, whether or not it was drifted in actual play.

I don't know FR, any edition, so I'd like to know how FR 1E was Wilderlands-y rather than Greyhawk-y. Did it not have nation states and Mary Sues?

FR1 had Cormyr and Sembia, and that was about it. The Dalelands were nothing more than a very weak loose confederation. the Zhentarim were a real menace, which (from reading that book alone) sounded like at any moment they might swoop in and destroy all in their path. In between that Cormyr/dalelands region and Waterdeep there was nothing more than vast untamed wilderness (and the ruins of ancient empires) with very occasional settlements.  places like Amn and calimsham were distant and mostly existed as "faraway lands", as did the Red Wizards, as mostly a faraway enemy beyond the Zhentarim.   Everything else was wilderness or small city-state regions.

It felt WAY less crowded than the FR today, the opposite of crowded in fact, vast and unexplored, and untamed and awesome.

RPGPundit

Quote from: estarThe reason is the how the Wilderlands is presented as a series of hex maps, with hundreds of locations keyed to each hex. With that type of material it is very easy for a DM to run a game where the players are doing what is described in "Points of Light". Wandering from place to place, encountering adventuring, etc.

This is opposed to how Greyhawk, the original Forgotten Realms and dozens of other settings where you get a gazetteer, an encyclopedia of sorts. A encyclopedia is nice, but you need to work as a DM to take that and make it useful for your game.

Although I cherised that double-poster map of Greyhawk I got when I was 11, and hung it up on my wall for years, the gazetter had zero utility as a D&D game aid. Okay, so Almor can raise 2,500 heavy cavalry and 4,000 medium infants, and exports cloth and silver. What in fuck does that do for me when I've got a band of PCs wandering out of the Great Desert with sacks full of stolen gems and mummy rot?

To make a 'venturing into the savage lands' setting useful, you need lots of boots-on-the-ground descriptions and encounters. Don't tell me the origin of the Sea Princes dynasty - tell me about the band of sahaugin that ambushes small vessels at the Melusa Eastuary. Tell me about the how the priests of the Broken God trade the ink of their pet squids for young temple maidens. Stat out the sphinx that waylays travellers on the Old Kingdoms road. But do not tell me about kings and cosmologies and legendary heroes and trading empires.

Quote from: HaffrungTo make a 'venturing into the savage lands' setting useful, you need lots of boots-on-the-ground descriptions and encounters.

This is the point of my post, not that the Wilderlands is somehow a superior setting over everything else.  That the Wilderlands system of of mass quantities of encounters/locations keyed by hex is a superior way of aiding a DM in this type of play. Again NOT that Wilderland's background is somehow better than anything else.

If WoTC combines the hex number key with a well written and fun background for their new Forgotten Realms they have a shot at making a superior product. Especially if the new FR is going to be like the point of lights post. The use of a hex key and the style of play it enables may distract the fanboys who would react negatively. This is because hex key approach is somewhat unusual to find among setting presentations.

Quote from: WarthurSpellplague, eh?

Q. Is there anything happening to Mystra or the Weave?
A. The 2E to 3E change was one done on a retconning basis (i.e. "it was always like that") - they've decided that the 3E to 4E change wll be more in line with th 1E to 2E change. An in-game story/explanation will showcase the rule changes. As to what this explanation will be, it will be a catastrophe called the "Spellplague". It was noted that 'Expedition to Undermountain' and what happened to Halaster was a foreshadowing of this event - Halaster was trying to do something about it, but failed - badly. It was also noted that something akin to this "catastrophe" had happened before and had been mentioned in the 1E FR boxed set.

Here's more speculation about the Realms-changing event.

Now I have go getting out this old and crumpled box and
1. search for that (according to Ed Greenwood) "esoteric reference"
2. see whether the first incarnation of the Realms was indeed ...

Quote from: RPGPundit...vast and unexplored, and untamed and awesome.

Now that I think of it, there were those plastic hex overlays in that box...

Quote from: The thread Dirk linked toQ. Will some of the 'staple NPCs' of the Realms be replaced in the 4E transition?
A. Yes, because the Realms is a living world. There will be a changing of the guard but Drizzt and Elminster will still be around.

Well, that kills my interest in the new Realms.

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeNow I have go getting out this old and crumpled box and
1. search for that (according to Ed Greenwood) "esoteric reference"
2. see whether the first incarnation of the Realms was indeed ...

Now that I think of it, there were those plastic hex overlays in that box...

Check out page 10 of the 1e "DM's Sourcebook of the Realms" booklet. There's visual a size comparison between the continental USA and, just, western Toril.  If you were to add together ALL of North America's landmass, including Canada's northern islands, you might equal the landmass of the West.  The space between Waterdeep and Cormyr is easily as wide as the great plains.  The inner sea is about 7x larger than the great lakes system.

Reading the "Cyclopedia of the Realms" is pretty funny.  There are lots of cities and towns detailed, but there aren't many nation states at all.  Some large city-states, some leagues of cities, and definitely some cultural regions but there are vast tracts of land in between these pockets of civilization.

It's immense, empty, and mostly mysterious.

How times have changed.

Also to bring up another antecedent to this whole world concept - Middle Earth of the Third Age (LOTR).  The only nations that exist are Gondor and Rohan everything else is just small enclaves (Bree, the Shire, Laketown).  So to some extent the Wilderlands have more in common with Middle Earth than with say Howards Hyborian world (which is chock full of nations).

The Wilderlands started out as an explicity Middle Earth campaign, with Bledsaws' player running Boromir, Gandalf, etc.  The campaign is named after one of Tolkien's original Middle Earth maps, labeled "the Wilderlands".

The more you know!

(Wow.  I love trivia like that.  Thanks Jeff.)

You can read up on it here

http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Research.html

Quote from: jrientsThe Wilderlands started out as an explicity Middle Earth campaign, with Bedslaws' player running Boromir, Gandalf, etc.  The campaign is named after one of Tolkien's original Middle Earth maps, labeled "the Wilderlands".

Bob Bledsaw connected Middle Earth with the Wilderlands via portals.

Of course Tolkein had less naked Amazons!

It's a fair cop.

Quote from: ligedogAlso to bring up another antecedent to this whole world concept - Middle Earth of the Third Age (LOTR).  The only nations that exist are Gondor and Rohan everything else is just small enclaves (Bree, the Shire, Laketown).  So to some extent the Wilderlands have more in common with Middle Earth than with say Howards Hyborian world (which is chock full of nations).

I was thinking this as well.

Although set much earlier than the LotR (around 1640 TA), a lot of the old ICE campaign modules have a very 'Wilderlands-like' feel -- lots of ancient ruins, uncivilised areas, dark organisations plotting vile things, and only scattered beacons of civilisation.  (In 1640 Arthedain is still around in the northwest, though, and Rohan doesn't exist yet, but the overall feel isn't that different.)