So, watching High Plains Drifter tonight and I was wondering, what denomination was most common in the Wild West? Both in the films and historically? Baptist? I would think Protestant most likely but I am so guessing at that.
Thanks,
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltSo, watching High Plains Drifter tonight and I was wondering, what denomination was most common in the Wild West? Both in the films and historically? Baptist? I would think Protestant most likely but I am so guessing at that.
Thanks,
Bill
southwest I would think Catholic. given the whole Spanish mission network from florida to California. The "west" had decades of Spanish Catholic influence before Anglo settlers began migrating in great numbers. California, arizona, new mexico territory, Texas all predominantly catholic. and even then Irish Catholics were a great number in that migration. Irish Rail workers and Battalions of Irish soldiers.
Quote from: The Evil DMsouthwest I would think Catholic. given the whole Spanish mission network from florida to California. The "west" had decades of Spanish Catholic influence before Anglo settlers began migrating in great numbers. California, arizona, new mexico territory, Texas all predominantly catholic. and even then Irish Catholics were a great number in that migration. Irish Rail workers and Battalions of Irish soldiers.
Not really. Catholicism until the early 20th century was considered a "foreign" religion predominantly.
Americans were protestant, varyingly Evangelical depending on how close an awakening was. Pentecostal flavors and Baptist denominations were
very common. If that's not enough in the ballpark for you Bill, I can post LOTS of information on this topic, and back it up with references...the above is just top of my head.
I seem to recall reading once that the Methodists of the era had this thing for building octogonal brick churches, which I thought was kinda weird.
IIRC, evangelicalism was the most popular form of Christianity during the old west. Funny enough, it has also become the most popular Protestant group in the US, today.
Quote from: joewolzNot really. Catholicism until the early 20th century was considered a "foreign" religion predominantly.
Americans were protestant, varyingly Evangelical depending on how close an awakening was. Pentecostal flavors and Baptist denominations were very common. If that's not enough in the ballpark for you Bill, I can post LOTS of information on this topic, and back it up with references...the above is just top of my head.
Oh, that is fine. Mostly I was looking at the preachers in Hang 'em High and they were leading a crowd (waiting for the hanging) in hymns and prayers. His "uniform" looked unfamiliar and the hymns were different from what I know. If it helps, he had a round black hat and what looked more like a black suit with a white shirt.
Now, I know Hollywood westerns are not historical reference but it got me wondering. I use a lot of religion in my games and although westerns are not my favorite, I have always considered my systems a good fit. Combine that and it gets me wondering what the Wild West had for religion. He did not look Lutheran, Episcopal, or Catholic so I thought Baptist (fire & brimstone) or some branch I knew noting about.
Thanks,
Bill
Evangelicalism isn't a denomination, though. It's a movement within various churches and denominations. There are evangelical Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, and even Roman Catholics. The churches in the Old West would vary by the ethnicity and background of the population. Generally speaking, churches would be Catholic among the Mexican and Irish immigrants, Lutheran among the German and Swedish immigrants, Baptist among the southern American immigrants, and Methodist among the northern American immigrants. That covers about 85% of the population. As for the balance, there were various splinter denominations - nothing like protestants for splintering - sometimes as small as a single church in a single town. Depending where in the west you went, blacks would either worship along with the whites, or more likely have their own church, even if both churches were Baptist. Most Chinese of the time were still non-christian, and Jews were mostly only in the larger cities or non-observant, though there were isolated communities where there were enough Jews to make a congregation. Episcopal churches were also only found in the larger towns. Mormons, of course, in Utah and a few other places!
Oh! And don't forget the Church of Starry Wisdom!
-clahs
Don't know what denominations were common in the Wild West, but I'm pretty sure that in High Plains Drifter, Clint was Righteuos Cool...which I think is an obscure branch of Protestantism.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RDon't know what denominations were common in the Wild West, but I'm pretty sure that in High Plains Drifter, Clint was Righteuos Cool...which I think is an obscure branch of Protestantism.
QFT. See also "The Outlaw Josey Wales"....Righteous cool indeed.
On the religion question, my admittedly brief research is that organized religion was often hard to find in frontier towns so in a lot of cases the town would build one church which was essentially non or multi denominational. For example, the Old West Church in Vermont (admittedly not actually the "Old West") in the 19th century was owned jointly by six denominations, the Baptists, Universalists, Congregationalists, Christians, Free Will Baptists, and Methodists.
I used to play Boot Hill and I would always just stick with generic christianity (i.e. we believe in God, Jesus saves, read the bible, sin and go to Hell). Throw a few Catholic Churches in for that spaghetti western flavor and you are good to go.
Quote from: joewolzNot really. Catholicism until the early 20th century was considered a "foreign" religion predominantly.
Americans were protestant, varyingly Evangelical depending on how close an awakening was. Pentecostal flavors and Baptist denominations were very common. If that's not enough in the ballpark for you Bill, I can post LOTS of information on this topic, and back it up with references...the above is just top of my head.
:rolleyes: The question was "What denomination was most common in the Wild West?"
Now considering the "West" Included all the territory taken from Mexico as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo- which ended the Mexican/American war. and that probably 90% of the urban population in the cities of the southwest (Santa Fe -founded in the 1500's,Los Angeles-founded in the 1700's, etc.) were catholic. as were a large percentage of the amerindian population. But hollywood and the public school system have always had trouble giving an accurate accounting of the people who lived in the "Old west". that is until "Americans" began taming that wild country.
From a New England- Anglo descended perspective, then I suppose Catholics were considered a "foreign" religious group. But in the west, the true west- that wasnt the case.
Of course in the hollywood west, The west that most Americans assume is true, the west of "Manifest destiny"- well thats another story.:raise:
Quote from: HinterWeltSo, watching High Plains Drifter tonight and I was wondering, what denomination was most common in the Wild West? Both in the films and historically? Thanks,
Bill
In films: I would say Baptist and Pentecostal with Methodists a close third.
Catholic churches were window dressing in the movies set in the Southwest. with the occasional Padre running out just in time to get shot, by the bad guys.
The time period did have a lot going for it religiously the Resurgance, the Third Great Awakening (1850ish) which had a period of resurgance from 1880-1900 or so had a significant increase in protestant religious activity (And also Baptists--which is not always considered protestant since that movement is "newer" than Baptist faith in some versions of their own view.)
Quote from: The Evil DMIn films: I would say Baptist and Pentecostal with Methodists a close third.
Catholic churches were window dressing in the movies set in the Southwest. with the occasional Padre running out just in time to get shot, by the bad guys.
Just to be clear, I was interested in both historical and movie. I understand that Catholicism was very big for all the points sited. There is even a precedent in the movie world. Stangely, not so much in Clint Eastwood movies but more in John Wayne movies...or that is the way I remember it. Maybe it is just a proximity to Mexico. Anyway, I am not a big fan of the genre but it does interest me.
I wonder if a straight historical western RPG would work? It seems to be a pretty brutal time. Also, in actual accounts of shoot outs it sounds like a lot of missing and then slow death (often on both sides) when they finally did hit.
Personally, I think a cross between movies and history would be best. Definitely would need to have a good "intimidate" mechanism and in general a good set of mechanics for not getting to the shootout stage. Something like a movie i the sense that the final shootout usually happens at the end and involves a lot of people shooting and missing. I think this would reflect a lot of the historical aspect in the sense of an entire conflict would only be resolved with guns as a last resort. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there was plenty of killin' done. Still, I think it is also a case that people would do their best to get what they want without risking their life.
So, are there a western games out there that:
1. Capture a cross between history and movies (does not matter which side of the line it is biased too).
2. No magic/supernatural elements. Encounters and conflict are based on the movies (say Clint Eastwood ones) type of conflict. For example, lone lawman to retrieve gang of bad guys and recruits posse. Hijinks ensue.
3. Has cultural elements of the old west like the religion we are talking about, the ranch life, or many of the items I am sure to be ignorant of.
I imagine it would be nasty deadly. You often have a fairly high body count in movies and historically, you seem to either get missed, hit in a minor way or wounded unto death (either immediately or shortly).
Oh, another question, what was disease like int he old west? Were there plagues?
O.k, sorry for all the questions but it is an era that I am interested but never really explored. Mostly, I do not like traditional westerns since it usually screws the Indians and I find that subject rather depressing. The Clint Eastwood ones are more about the West and white men screwing white men.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill:
Two words: Coyote Trail, from PiG.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceBill:
Two words: Coyote Trail, from PiG.
-clash
yeah, that is the definitive Wild West RPG, no question.
Also:
"Also, in actual accounts of shoot outs it sounds like a lot of missing and then slow death (often on both sides) when they finally did hit."
That's what happens in all gunfights/wars. The ratio of shots made to hits is enormous. The vast majority of shots taken are never even intended to hit - they are used to pin the enemy down in cover.
Incidentally, that's why I designed the SC system the way it is - you are assumed to be taking plenty of shots that don't have a chance of hitting. You only roll for those shots that might have a chance. It's a concept very few people get - even my own players sometimes forget. Player: "Whaddya mean I'm out of ammo? I only took two shots!" Me: "You used up a clip per round shooting while trying to position yourself for a good hit, and you had two clips."
-clash
I think a really cool way to do historical gunfights like the OK Corral or the Four Dead in Five Seconds Gunfight would be to massively reduce the amount of time in a combat round (one second a la GURPS, maybe) as well as having lots of missed shots and nasty wound rules.
Extreme slow-motion in gameplay, essentially. And initiative would suddenly seem a lot more important. You wouldn't want to do this for every fight, though, probably. Or at least if you did, you wouldn't want to have a lot of gunfights.
Sorry, this isn't actually about Wild West religion, but the question seems to have already been answered.
Quote from: HinterWeltSo, are there a western games out there that:
1. Capture a cross between history and movies (does not matter which side of the line it is biased too).
2. No magic/supernatural elements. Encounters and conflict are based on the movies (say Clint Eastwood ones) type of conflict. For example, lone lawman to retrieve gang of bad guys and recruits posse. Hijinks ensue.
3. Has cultural elements of the old west like the religion we are talking about, the ranch life, or many of the items I am sure to be ignorant of.
I imagine it would be nasty deadly. You often have a fairly high body count in movies and historically, you seem to either get missed, hit in a minor way or wounded unto death (either immediately or shortly).
You should look at the PDF previews for the Aces & Eights: Shattered Frontier RPG, coming next month (June). I think it's got everything you'd want - and much more...
Go here (http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?products_id=489) and scroll down for the preview PDF links.
As far as diseases, on all the TV westerns I used to watch they would always have episodes with outbreaks of smallpox and typhoid. I don't know how historical it is but practically every show had it.
Quote from: GrimjackAs far as diseases, on all the TV westerns I used to watch they would always have episodes with outbreaks of smallpox and typhoid. I don't know how historical it is but practically every show had it.
Smallpox and influenza were the big ones that scared the crap out of everyone.
Consumption (tuberculosis) wasn't quite a plague but it was a very serious "social disease" (from hanging around in the wrong places, extreme poverty, etc); alongside venereal diseases of course (syphilis being the really bad one).
Two of the greatest gunfighters of all time were essentially taken out by tuberculosis and syphilis (Doc Holliday and Wild Bill Hickock respectively, though the latter was killed before the disease actually killed him, his abilities and alertness were essentially wasted away by the disease's effects).
RPGPundit
From newadvent.org (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03170a.htm)The following statistics of the religious denominations of California given below were represented by the United States Census of 1890.
- Catholic 157,346
- Methodist 36,874
- Presbyterian 18,934
- Baptist 11,383
- Congregational 11,907
- Jewish 6,179
- Lutheran 4,267
- Adventist 2,822
Catholics do not recognize any such enumeration as "communicants"; the total for this head therefore underestimates the Catholic population.
TEXAS: POPULATION ACCORDING TO RELIGIOUS BELIEF
In numbers, the Catholic population ranks third of all the religious denominations in the State. The Census Bureau's figures (1906) give Baptist bodies in the State, 401,720 communicants; Disciples of Christ 73,556; Lutherans 27,436; Methodists 317,495; Presbyterians, 62,090; Protestant Episcopalians, 14,346; Catholics, 308,556; Jewish congregation, 11,676. The figures given more recently by Catholic diocesan authorities show 311,667, and doubtless since the increase in the number of chidlren communicants a larger showing may well be claimed. Altogether, of the population of Texas about 25 per cent is Protestant, about 9 per cent Catholic; all other religions, less than 1 per cent, leaving about 65 per cent having no definite religious belief.
New Mexico: Religion
In 1850, when New Mexico was organized as a territory of the United States, it (including, till 1863, Arizona and part of Colorado) was made a vicariate Apostolic, under the Rt. Rev. John B. Lamy. In 1853 New Mexico (with exceptions noted below) was made the Diocese of Santa Fé, and the vicar Apostolic became its first bishop. In 1865 this diocese became the Archdiocese of Santa Fé, and Bishop Lamy became its first archbishop. The archdiocese includes all of New Mexico, except Do��na, Eddy, and Grant Counties, which belong to the Diocese of Tuscon. The present Archbishop of Santa Fé is the Rt. Rev. John B. Pitaval. The Catholic population of the territory in 1882 was 126,000; in 1906 it was 121,558 (U. S. Census Bulletin, no. 103, p. 36). But the figures for 1882 (given by H. H. Bancroft) must include the Catholic population of Arizona and probably also of Colorado. In 1906 Catholics were more than 88 percent of the church membership of the territory, which was 137,009, distributed as follows:—
Roman Catholics. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .... .. . . .. . . .121,558
Methodists. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . .. .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . ..6,560
Presbyterians. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . . ..2,935
Baptists. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . . .2,403
Disciples, or Christians. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .1,092
Protestant Episcopalians. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . ..869
Unclassified. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . .1,592
Total. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . . . . . .137,009
At present (1910) the total Catholic population of New Mexico may be estimated at not less than 130,000, about 120,000 being of Spanish descent. No definite statistics are available on this last point. The large Catholic population of New Mexico is due to having been colonized by the Spaniards, whose first thought on founding a colony was to build churches and establish missions. The recent Catholic immigration has been from the Middle West, and this is largely Irish.
Good research, dude!
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditConsumption (tuberculosis) wasn't quite a plague but it was a very serious "social disease" (from hanging around in the wrong places, extreme poverty, etc)
I wouldn't call it a "social disease." It may have been more common among the poor (as most diseases are), but I've never read anything that said catching consumption meant you'd been "slumming" or had loose morals, or anything like that.
Quote from: Mark PlemmonsI wouldn't call it a "social disease." It may have been more common among the poor (as most diseases are), but I've never read anything that said catching consumption meant you'd been "slumming" or had loose morals, or anything like that.
Dude, that is precisely why for a brief while in the Romanticism movement it became "fashionable" to catch consumption, it suggested that you were "slumming it". Unfortunately, Chopin and a couple of other dudes had to die of it before the 19th century's version of the Swine figured out that it was a
really stupid fad.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditDude, that is precisely why for a brief while in the Romanticism movement it became "fashionable" to catch consumption, it suggested that you were "slumming it".
That's Europe, though. We're talking about the Wild West, and I've never heard anything like that when it comes to the frontier. If you've read something that says it occurred in the West, I'd like to know your sources, so I can read up on it too.
Quote from: Mark PlemmonsThat's Europe, though. We're talking about the Wild West, and I've never heard anything like that when it comes to the frontier. If you've read something that says it occurred in the West, I'd like to know your sources, so I can read up on it too.
Oh, I definitely didn't mean to imply there was any romantic notions to TB in the wild west. That said, back then as now, TB was generally caught by people living in cramped and unsanitary conditions, in poverty, etc.
Doc Holliday, for example, likely caught the disease while studying dentistry in Philadelphia, where he had to suffer some pretty unsanitary conditions.
RPGPundit
From my grandparents I understood that TB was a "filthy and disgraceful" disease. Everyone they knew of who had it lied about it. Course my grandparents were Japanese so there may have been a cultural thing there too.
Also... it's hardly proof but I've always noticed in movies that TB coughing is treated differently than regular coughs. Before I assumed they were uncomfortable because of the blood but now I can't help but view the hiding and apologizing as a sign of their disgrace more than their squeamishness around blood.
Yeah, I could be way off base, but I just don't think the social connotations were the same in what we think of as the Wild West, where the sanitation wasn't the greatest. :) I can imagine social implications possibly occurring in the eastern US, though (or among high society immigrants from the east, now on the frontier).
Heck, with pneumonia, croup, influenza, bronchitis, malaria, measles, scarlet fever, smallpox, diphtheria, brain fever and cholera, consumption would just be one of many. ;)