So, watching High Plains Drifter tonight and I was wondering, what denomination was most common in the Wild West? Both in the films and historically? Baptist? I would think Protestant most likely but I am so guessing at that.

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, watching High Plains Drifter tonight and I was wondering, what denomination was most common in the Wild West? Both in the films and historically? Baptist? I would think Protestant most likely but I am so guessing at that.

Thanks,
Bill

southwest I would think Catholic. given the whole Spanish mission network from florida to California. The "west" had decades of Spanish Catholic influence before Anglo settlers began migrating in great numbers. California, arizona, new mexico territory, Texas all predominantly catholic. and even then Irish Catholics were a great number in that migration. Irish Rail workers and Battalions of Irish soldiers.

Quote from: The Evil DMsouthwest I would think Catholic. given the whole Spanish mission network from florida to California. The "west" had decades of Spanish Catholic influence before Anglo settlers began migrating in great numbers. California, arizona, new mexico territory, Texas all predominantly catholic. and even then Irish Catholics were a great number in that migration. Irish Rail workers and Battalions of Irish soldiers.

Not really.  Catholicism until the early 20th century was considered a "foreign" religion predominantly.

Americans were protestant, varyingly Evangelical depending on how close an awakening was.  Pentecostal flavors and Baptist denominations were very common.  If that's not enough in the ballpark for you Bill, I can post LOTS of information on this topic, and back it up with references...the above is just top of my head.

I seem to recall reading once that the Methodists of the era had this thing for building octogonal brick churches, which I thought was kinda weird.

IIRC, evangelicalism was the most popular form of Christianity during the old west. Funny enough, it has also become the most popular Protestant group in the US, today.

Quote from: joewolzNot really.  Catholicism until the early 20th century was considered a "foreign" religion predominantly.

Americans were protestant, varyingly Evangelical depending on how close an awakening was.  Pentecostal flavors and Baptist denominations were very common.  If that's not enough in the ballpark for you Bill, I can post LOTS of information on this topic, and back it up with references...the above is just top of my head.

Oh, that is fine. Mostly I was looking at the preachers in Hang 'em High and they were leading a crowd (waiting for the hanging) in hymns and prayers. His "uniform" looked unfamiliar and the hymns were different from what I know. If it helps, he had a round black hat and what looked more like a black suit with a white shirt.

Now, I know Hollywood westerns are not historical reference but it got me wondering. I use a lot of religion in my games and although westerns are not my favorite, I have always considered my systems a good fit. Combine that and it gets me wondering what the Wild West had for religion. He did not look Lutheran, Episcopal, or Catholic so I thought Baptist (fire & brimstone) or some branch I knew noting about.

Thanks,
Bill

Evangelicalism isn't a denomination, though. It's a movement within various churches and denominations. There are evangelical Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, and even Roman Catholics. The churches in the Old West would vary by the ethnicity and background of the population. Generally speaking, churches would be Catholic among the Mexican and Irish immigrants, Lutheran among the German and Swedish immigrants, Baptist among the southern American immigrants, and Methodist among the northern American immigrants. That covers about 85% of the population. As for the balance, there were various splinter denominations - nothing like protestants for splintering - sometimes as small as a single church in a single town. Depending where in the west you went, blacks would either worship along with the whites, or more likely have their own church, even if both churches were Baptist. Most Chinese of the time were still non-christian, and Jews were mostly only in the larger cities or non-observant, though there were isolated communities where there were enough Jews to make a congregation. Episcopal churches were also only found in the larger towns. Mormons, of course, in Utah and a few other places!

Oh! And don't forget the Church of Starry Wisdom!

-clahs

Don't know what denominations were common in the Wild West, but I'm pretty sure that in High Plains Drifter, Clint was Righteuos Cool...which I think is an obscure branch of Protestantism.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RDon't know what denominations were common in the Wild West, but I'm pretty sure that in High Plains Drifter, Clint was Righteuos Cool...which I think is an obscure branch of Protestantism.

QFT.  See also "The Outlaw Josey Wales"....Righteous cool indeed.

On the religion question, my admittedly brief research is that organized religion was often hard to find in frontier towns so in a lot of cases the town would build one church which was essentially non or multi denominational. For example, the Old West Church in Vermont (admittedly not actually the "Old West") in the 19th century was owned jointly by six denominations, the Baptists, Universalists, Congregationalists, Christians, Free Will Baptists, and Methodists.

I used to play Boot Hill and I would always just stick with generic christianity (i.e. we believe in God, Jesus saves, read the bible, sin and go to Hell).  Throw a few Catholic Churches in for that spaghetti western flavor and you are good to go.

Quote from: joewolzNot really.  Catholicism until the early 20th century was considered a "foreign" religion predominantly.

Americans were protestant, varyingly Evangelical depending on how close an awakening was.  Pentecostal flavors and Baptist denominations were very common.  If that's not enough in the ballpark for you Bill, I can post LOTS of information on this topic, and back it up with references...the above is just top of my head.

:rolleyes: The question was "What denomination was most common in the Wild West?"
Now considering the "West" Included all the territory taken from Mexico as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo- which ended the Mexican/American war. and that probably 90% of the urban population in the cities of the southwest (Santa Fe -founded in the 1500's,Los Angeles-founded in the 1700's, etc.) were catholic. as were a large percentage of the amerindian population.  But hollywood and the public school system have always had trouble giving an accurate accounting of the people who lived in the "Old west". that is until "Americans" began taming that wild country.  

From a New England- Anglo descended perspective, then I suppose Catholics were considered a "foreign" religious group. But in the west, the true west- that wasnt the case.

Of course in the hollywood west, The west that most Americans assume is true, the west of "Manifest destiny"- well thats another story.:raise:

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, watching High Plains Drifter tonight and I was wondering, what denomination was most common in the Wild West? Both in the films and historically? Thanks,
Bill

In films: I would say Baptist and Pentecostal with Methodists a close third.

Catholic churches were window dressing in the movies set in the Southwest. with the occasional Padre running out just in time to get shot, by the bad guys.

The time period did have a lot going for it religiously the Resurgance, the Third Great Awakening (1850ish) which had a period of resurgance from 1880-1900 or so had a significant increase in protestant religious activity  (And also Baptists--which is not always considered protestant since that movement is "newer" than Baptist faith in some versions of their own view.)

Quote from: The Evil DMIn films: I would say Baptist and Pentecostal with Methodists a close third.

Catholic churches were window dressing in the movies set in the Southwest. with the occasional Padre running out just in time to get shot, by the bad guys.

Just to be clear, I was interested in both historical and movie. I understand that Catholicism was very big for all the points sited. There is even a precedent in the movie world. Stangely, not so much in Clint Eastwood movies but more in John Wayne movies...or that is the way I remember it. Maybe it is just a proximity to Mexico. Anyway, I am not a big fan of the genre but it does interest me.

I wonder if a straight historical western RPG would work? It seems to be a pretty brutal time. Also, in actual accounts of shoot outs it sounds like a lot of missing and then slow death (often on both sides) when they finally did hit.

Personally, I think a cross between movies and history would be best. Definitely would need to have a good "intimidate" mechanism and in general a good set of mechanics for not getting to the shootout stage. Something like a movie i the sense that the final shootout usually happens at the end and involves a lot of people shooting and missing. I think this would reflect a lot of the historical aspect in the sense of an entire conflict would only be resolved with guns as a last resort. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there was plenty of killin' done. Still, I think it is also a case that people would do their best to get what they want without risking their life.

So, are there a western games out there that:

1. Capture a cross between history and movies (does not matter which side of the line it is biased too).

2. No magic/supernatural elements. Encounters and conflict are based on the movies (say Clint Eastwood ones) type of conflict. For example, lone lawman to retrieve gang of bad guys and recruits posse. Hijinks ensue.

3. Has cultural elements of the old west like the religion we are talking about, the ranch life, or many of the items I am sure to be ignorant of.

I imagine it would be nasty deadly. You often have a fairly high body count in movies and historically, you seem to either get missed, hit in a minor way or wounded unto death (either immediately or shortly).

Oh, another question, what was disease like int he old west? Were there plagues?

O.k, sorry for all the questions but it is an era that I am interested but never really explored. Mostly, I do not like traditional westerns since it usually screws the Indians and I find that subject rather depressing. The Clint Eastwood ones are more about the West and white men screwing white men.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill:

Two words: Coyote Trail, from PiG.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceBill:

Two words: Coyote Trail, from PiG.

-clash

yeah, that is the definitive Wild West RPG, no question.