TheRPGSite

5e update. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20131014)

QuoteWhen your druid uses Wild Shape, you simply adopt the stat block of the creature you've chosen to transform into. You retain your own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, but otherwise use your chosen animal's statistics.

That transformation extends to you using the animal's hit points. If damage reduces you to 0 hit points, your Wild Shape transformation ends. Any excess damage applies to your current hit point total. For example, a druid with 22 hit points transforms into a 5 hit point creature, then takes 10 damage. The animal form takes 5 damage, the druid transforms back to normal, and the remaining 5 damage reduces him to 17 hit points.

Magic items do not extend to your animal form. Magic and mundane gear is subsumed into that form, so you don't have to worry about dropping all your gear to the ground when you change. You do not gain any of the benefits of your items.

Your proficiencies do carry over, and you gain any proficiencies that the animal benefits from.

The animal forms available to a druid are meant to provide creative options for solving problems. You can transform into a bird, a fish, or some other small, mundane animal. The Circle of the Moon druid can take forms that are more ferocious and suitable for battle.

Overall, these changes are meant to simplify and streamline Wild Shape while creating a sense of flexibility for the druid. It's easy to simply switch to a new set of statistics while in animal form, rather than going through the steps of modifying one set of stats or the other. How Wild Shape handles hit points is perhaps the biggest change compared to earlier approaches.

Interesting to note that wild shape effectively gives you temp HP.

I dislike adopting stats, generally.
Interruption by damage is something I like in general.
Hopefully there won't be anything that lets druids cast spells in wild shape.

I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;6998025e update. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20131014)



Interesting to note that wild shape effectively gives you temp HP.

Not sure I like that. Hopefully no natural spell shenanigans or unlimited use happens.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

Effectively a were(whatever) without being a were(whatever). And yeah, sometimes it feels like the focus has shifted towards... er... shifting gradually.

Though It is more a trend to want to hammer down rules more. So the spellcasting side is left mostly as was. But the shapeshifting gets more and more fleshed out. Depending on who's writing what this time.

As for the temp HP. Not much different from the older versions where your animal form damage did not carry over when you changed back.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

Agree.

I think probably clerics getting more and more versatile is what pushed druids into shapeshifting as their Thing. They share a goodly set of spells with cleric, so differentiating them had to mean using something else.

There are two sub-classes presented: Circle of the Land, which is a spell-casting themed Druid, and Circle of the Moon, which is a shapechange-themed Druid.  Both can shapechange and use spells, but the sub-classes enhance one or the other feature.

Text of the Shapechange rule for both types:

Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you have completed a short rest or a long rest. At 8th level, you can use Wild Shape twice between rests.

When you transform, choose one of the shapes available to you. You can transform into a bat, a cat, a deer, a dog, a fish, a hawk, a horse, an owl, a raven, a snake, a toad, or a weasel.

You can stay in a particular shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level, after which time you revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier as part of any action that doesn't involve casting a spell or activating a magic item. And you automatically revert to your normal form if you fall unconscious, are reduced to 0 hit points, or die.

While you are transformed, the following rules apply:

• Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, but you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If both you and the creature have the same proficiency, use only the higher bonus.

• When you transform, you assume the creature's hit points. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, however, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert to your normal form and take 9 damage.

• You cannot speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech. Transforming does not break your concentration on a spell you have already cast, however.

• Your gear is subsumed in the new shape, so you cannot access such equipment to activate, use, wield, or otherwise benefit from it. (For instance, any magic item, armor, weapon or shield you have is of no benefit to you.)

Here is the first sub-class, Circle of the Land:

Circle of the Land Features
Level Feature
2 Circle Spells
6 Land's Stride
10 Nature's Ward  

Circle Spells Your mystical connection to the land infuses you with additional spells that you can cast and prepare.

Bonus Cantrip. You learn one additional druid cantrip of your choice.

Natural Recovery. Once per day during a short rest, you can regain some of your magical energy by sitting in meditation and communing with nature. You choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is less than or equal to half your druid level (round up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher. For example, when you are a 4th-*‐level druid, you can recover up to two levels worth of spell slots. You can recover either a 2nd-*‐level spell slot or two 1st-*‐level spell slots.

Spells of the Land. Choose the land where you became a druid: coast, desert, forest, grassland, mountain, swamp or tundra. Your native land forever influences your connection to primal magic, determining spells that you always have prepared once you reach certain druid levels. These spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare each day. If a spell your land grants you doesn't appear on the druid spell list, the spell is, nonetheless, a druid spell for you.

Coast Level Spells 3 augury, mirror image 5 water breathing, water walk 7 freedom of movement, solid fog 9 scrying, true seeing

Desert Level Spells 3 blur, silence 5 create food and water, protection from energy 7 blight, hallucinatory terrain 9 control winds, wall of stone

Forest Level Spells 3 augury, barkskin 5 call lightning, plant growth 7 divination, freedom of movement 9 commune with nature, plant door

Grassland Level Spells 3 augury, pass without trace 5 daylight, haste 7 air walk, divination 9 dream, insect plague

Mountain Level Spells 3 spider climb, spike growth 5 elemental mantle, meld into stone 7 confusion, stoneskin 9 passwall, wall of stone

Swamp Level Spells 3 augury, locate object 5 water walk, stinking cloud 7 freedom of movement, locate creature 9 insect plague, scrying

Tundra Level Spells 3 augury, spike growth 5 sleet storm, slow 7 freedom of movement, ice storm 9 commune with nature, cone of cold

Land's Stride Starting at 6th level, moving through nonmagical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through nonmagical plant overgrowth at your normal rate of movement, taking no damage from thorns and similar natural hazards such plants possess. In addition, you have advantage on saving throws against plants that are magically created or manipulated to impede movement, such those created by the entangle spell.

Nature's Ward By 10th level, you cannot be charmed or frightened by elemental or fey creatures, and you are immune to poison and disease.

Text of the Circle of the Moon:

Circle of the Moon Features Level Feature  
2 Battle Wild Shape  
6 Mauler Shapes  
10 Monstrous Shapes  

Battle Wild Shape You can use Wild Shape as part of any action that doesn't involve casting a spell or activating a magic item. When you use your Wild Shape, you can choose to transform into an animal form that is dangerous in battle. The first battle forms you can assume are a dire wolf or a panther.

Mauler Shapes Starting at 6th level, you can assume two new battle forms: a brown bear or a tiger.

Monstrous Shapes At 10th level, you can assume two new battle forms: a cave bear or a triceratops.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

That "somewhere" would be the Riddle-Master of Hed trilogy, published in 1976 and one of the three major influences on the design of the AD&D druid class.

The other two being Caesar's De Bello Gallico and Frazier's The Golden Bough, and their descriptions of "druids" are better fit by a general priest class.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;699889Agree.

I've always associated druids more with Animal companions but whatever.

I've always associated Druids more with human sacrifice, but hey.

JG

Quote from: Piestrio;699945I've always associated druids more with Animal companions but whatever.

So did I. But that was not quite to be. I think their summons spells could be beefed up to get closer to that feel though.

And as is a druid could load up on mostly summons.

Quote from: James Gillen;699970I've always associated Druids more with human sacrifice, but hey.

JG

Considering how many people the average adventuring druid is likely to off in the course of adventuring...

You may be right...

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

You can blame World of Warcraft for that...

I have just found the threshold for how much I give a damn about balance.  And that's where people complain that the Druid's weasel shape is not balanced with the cat shape.

Jesus Christ.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

Hopefully it is possible to branch out as a Druid (Ha!) and choose to be a better nature priest or a better shapeshifter.

Quote from: Marleycat;699878Not sure I like that. Hopefully no natural spell shenanigans or unlimited use happens.

Yup. It could be very cool, as long as the Druid does not end up being more sturdy than a fighter.

It sounds like there's definitely scope to be a spellcasting-with-a-bit-of-shifting druid or a shifting-with-a-bit-of-casting druid, which I think is a fair compromise. If you really don't like shapeshifting with your druids I'd suggest taking a cleric and just choosing your spells accordingly.

In Dungeon World, that's their focus as well. They don't even get spells.

I just hope they manage something less abuse laden than Pathfinder's shapeshifting+spellcasting+dinosaurs. (Take the right  feats and game balance is gone entirely.)

Quote from: Silverlion;700028In Dungeon World, that's their focus as well. They don't even get spells.

I just hope they manage something less abuse laden than Pathfinder's shapeshifting+spellcasting+dinosaurs. (Take the right  feats and game balance is gone entirely.)

Personally I would have no problem with a Druid being all about shapeshifting and nature affinity, and little to no spells.

After all, a cleric with a 'nature domain' is essentially a Druidic priest.

Meh, I guess "Natural Spell" is in as a level 20 capstone ability no matter what circle type you are. I suppose that's alright.

Quote from: Marleycat;700058Meh, I guess "Natural Spell" is in as a level 20 capstone ability no matter what circle type you are. I suppose that's alright.

Allthough I hate natural spell with an irrational passion, it is fine as a level 20 ability.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

There are three types of druid.  Only one is more focused on shapeshifting than the other.  And even then, you can only do it once (twice at 8th level) for an hour long.  So it's not like you're going to see druids going around in wild shape 24/7 or anything.

Quote from: Iosue;700022I have just found the threshold for how much I give a damn about balance.  And that's where people complain that the Druid's weasel shape is not balanced with the cat shape.

Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I saw that too.  Both are fucked if they happen to get kicked, so who the fuck cares if a cat and weasel aren't perfectly balanced mechanically.  Those are clearly flavor options.

I guess some people have to bitch about everything.  I wonder how they function in real life.

Quote from: Marleycat;700058Meh, I guess "Natural Spell" is in as a level 20 capstone ability no matter what circle type you are. I suppose that's alright.

I don't have issues with it.  What % of gamers are going to be playing at end game levels a lot?  Probably a small %.  I almost never do.  So for those powergamers out there who start at level 20 and wank to how powerful their PCs are can keep doing that while the rest of us just keep playing the game like normal.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700065I don't have issues with it.  What % of gamers are going to be playing at end game levels a lot?  Probably a small %.  I almost never do.  So for those powergamers out there who start at level 20 and wank to how powerful their PCs are can keep doing that while the rest of us just keep playing the game like normal.

Well thanks to MMOs, a good portion of the current mindset is that the game doesn't actually begin until you reach Level Cap... So, it might be a larger percentage than you realize.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;700073Well thanks to MMOs, a good portion of the current mindset is that the game doesn't actually begin until you reach Level Cap... So, it might be a larger percentage than you realize.

I have played very few games past 20.

Usually the pc's are essentially gods at that point, and it is more fun to start a new character.

Quote from: Silverlion;700028In Dungeon World...

When I read that, I hear it said in the tone of Yakov Smirnoff, "In Soviet Russia..."

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700065There are three types of druid.  Only one is more focused on shapeshifting than the other.  And even then, you can only do it once (twice at 8th level) for an hour long.  

Read it again.  "Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you have completed a short rest or a long rest. At 8th level, you can use Wild Shape twice between rests."  And each one lasts "a number of hours equal to half your druid level"

So a 4th level druid shapeshifts for 2 hours, then rests for 1 hour, then shapeshifts for 2 hours, then rests for 1 hour, etc..

By 8th level, they are shapeshifted for 4 hours, then shapeshifted into another form for 4 hours, then resting for 1 hour, then doing it all again.  So, with just a brief stop for an hour during the day, they can be in shapeshift form the entire day by 8th level.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;700073Well thanks to MMOs, a good portion of the current mindset is that the game doesn't actually begin until you reach Level Cap... So, it might be a larger percentage than you realize.

You're probably right.  Not just MMOs, but video games in general.  I can't count the number of times I hear people complain about raising the level cap on games like Diablo, Borderlands, Skyrim, etc.

When I thought video games would be the death of TTRPGs back in the day, I thought it would be because they replace them, not that the actual result is that people play TTRPGs just like a video game.

Quote from: Mistwell;700079Read it again.  "Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you have completed a short rest or a long rest. At 8th level, you can use Wild Shape twice between rests."

So it's wax on (for an hour), wax off (for an hour), wax on (hour), wax off (hour) all day long.

A short rest is an hour.  Don't know about what types of games you play, but in my experience, being able to rest for an hour in the middle of a dungeon crawl or hostile territory is very rare.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700065I guess some people have to bitch about everything.  I wonder how they function in real life.

I suspect they are the same people who transform a half hour meeting into a total waste of a whole afternoon of my life...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700081A short rest is an hour.  Don't know about what types of games you play, but in my experience, being able to rest for an hour in the middle of a dungeon crawl or hostile territory is very rare.

Sorry I edited my post...that was just for 2nd level, when you get the ability.  By 8th level, it's basically all day long.

And sometimes you can arrange to rest in a dungeon for an hour, and sometimes not.  I do not think holing up for an hour in a secured room is all that unusual, and given how many rules reset after an hour I think the rules strongly encourage it.  Particularly since rituals also take a long time to cast, and that seems to be how most magic items are being identified.

In my current game the party found a set of ancient secret doors that nobody has entered in years, and they've been holing up there when they can (until something follows them back there...that will be fun).

I can even see the rules encouraging the use of a new type of henchman - the "Room Securer Guy".  He'll be the guy in charge of spiking the door, then casting wizard lock on it, then arranging the items for identification, then assisting with rituals.  When he's not securing a room for the party, he will assume the normal henchman treasure-carrying and torch-bearing duties :)

Quote from: Mistwell;700086Sorry I edited my post...that was just for 2nd level, when you get the ability.  By 8th level, it's basically all day long.)

How do you figure?  At 8th level and beyond, you just get to use it twice between rests, not all day.

Quote from: Bill;700031After all, a cleric with a 'nature domain' is essentially a Druidic priest.

Nah, those are the druid wanna-bees.
Only those cool druid kids get to date nymphs and dryads.
Probably get picked on by real druids because they cant shapeshift.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700091How do you figure?  At 8th level and beyond, you just get to use it twice between rests, not all day.

I figure like this:

Quote from: Mistwell;700079By 8th level, they are shapeshifted for 4 hours, then shapeshifted into another form for 4 hours, then resting for 1 hour, then doing it all again.  So, with just a brief stop for an hour during the day, they can be in shapeshift form the entire day by 8th level.

Unless you think 16 hours with a single hour rest between isn't "all day"? Heck, with a second short rest you can go 24 hours!

Quote from: Mistwell;700106I figure like this:



Unless you think 16 hours with a single hour rest between isn't "all day"? Heck, with a second short rest you can go 24 hours!

But who would do that?  You can't cast spells or use any of your other abilities while in animal shape.  Not to mention if you take enough damage you are automatically reverted back to human form.

So while you can be in animal shape for that long, I highly doubt in actual play that that is what is going to happen.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700065There are three types of druid.  Only one is more focused on shapeshifting than the other.  And even then, you can only do it once (twice at 8th level) for an hour long.  So it's not like you're going to see druids going around in wild shape 24/7 or anything.



Yeah, I saw that too.  Both are fucked if they happen to get kicked, so who the fuck cares if a cat and weasel aren't perfectly balanced mechanically.  Those are clearly flavor options.

I guess some people have to bitch about everything.  I wonder how they function in real life.


 
I don't have issues with it.  What % of gamers are going to be playing at end game levels a lot?  Probably a small %.  I almost never do.  So for those powergamers out there who start at level 20 and wank to how powerful their PCs are can keep doing that while the rest of us just keep playing the game like normal.

Actually the length is half your Druid level so a level 20 Druid can be in Wildshape 20 hours total with Natural Spell but they are level 20 so that's fine.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

This.

The way the class is structured, you decide if you want to be more about being a priest of nature, or more about shapeshifting, and there is a sub-class for each.  The only default shapeshifting in the class is "you can turn into something fairly meager, that lets you scout well but not really overcome most types of challenges in the game that are not scouting-related".

I think the druid's been a bit overdesigned since 3E. In 3E they could've just had Druid as a cleric domain with 'animal friendship' as their L1 domain spell, 'polymorph self' as L3, 'reincarnate' as L4 and domain ability: gain Survival & Knowledge (nature) and they'd be halfway there.

Quote from: Iosue;700022I have just found the threshold for how much I give a damn about balance.  And that's where people complain that the Druid's weasel shape is not balanced with the cat shape.

Jesus Christ.

That's maybe the worst thread I've ever read on an RPG forum. Honestly. It made me ashamed to be in the same hobby as those freaks.

Quote from: Bill;700074I have played very few games past 20.

Usually the pc's are essentially gods at that point, and it is more fun to start a new character.

We usually retired the character around level 20. Castle, keep, tower, druids grove, temple, thieves guild, master of the world, whatever.

Quote from: Mistwell;700268The way the class is structured, you decide if you want to be more about being a priest of nature, or more about shapeshifting, and there is a sub-class for each.  The only default shapeshifting in the class is "you can turn into something fairly meager, that lets you scout well but not really overcome most types of challenges in the game that are not scouting-related".

That's my take. You aren't supposed to be some shapeshifting, summoning armies of creatures freak to embody nature and balance.

I'll stick to OD&D and AD&D Druids for now.
Shapeshift at level 7 (level 5 in OD&D), 3 times per day, each of the 3 changes has to be a different animal, no duration limit and no mention of not being able to cast while in animal form.

And the 10-60% heal gained when they shift on top of that.

Quote from: Omega;700340I'll stick to OD&D and AD&D Druids for now.
Shapeshift at level 7 (level 5 in OD&D), 3 times per day, each of the 3 changes has to be a different animal, no duration limit and no mention of not being able to cast while in animal form.

And the 10-60% heal gained when they shift on top of that.

That's barely less powerful than a 3x Druid all it's missing is spontaneous summoning. I never realized how powerful they were under anything less than no spellcasting in animal form, very interesting. Even though like 1e bards and monks it was a bitch to advance to any level worth a crap.

I never ordinarily allowed casting as an animal or non-humanoid in 1e. You need to be able to make human gestures to fulfill the somatic components and human sounds to fuifill the verbal components. If you were, say, a monkey or a parrot you might be able to do one or the other.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

I agree with that. A shapeshifter might be a cool idea for a class, but maybe shapeshifting should only be an option for the druid.

I am actually liking 5e's take on the situation...limited to a short list of useful mundane animals useful primarily in exploration but also useful in some social scenerios unless you specialize in shapeshifting at the direct cost of spellcasting  unless you are 20th level, fair to me. My only issue is the temporary highpoint issue but that seems fairly containable after thinking it through.

Quote from: Imp;700382I never ordinarily allowed casting as an animal or non-humanoid in 1e. You need to be able to make human gestures to fulfill the somatic components and human sounds to fuifill the verbal components. If you were, say, a monkey or a parrot you might be able to do one or the other.

That was our ruling but I did see it ruled far more liberally because it wasn't explicit much like elven F/M's casting in armor (we went with elven chain allowed for it).

Quote from: Iosue;700022I have just found the threshold for how much I give a damn about balance.  And that's where people complain that the Druid's weasel shape is not balanced with the cat shape.

Jesus Christ.

Really?  That seems somewhat . . . extreme.

Quote from: Marleycat;700414That was our ruling but I did see it ruled far more liberally because it wasn't explicit much like elven F/M's casting in armor (we went with elven chain allowed for it).

I thought Elven chain was 2e; in 1E they gave casting in armor as an example in the dual class section (as an example of terrible, terrible rule placement).

Quote from: Votan;700443I thought Elven chain was 2e; in 1E they gave casting in armor as an example in the dual class section (as an example of terrible, terrible rule placement).

It was. Only played 1e 3-4 times. 2e is my old school Dnd.:)

5e druids while shifted have the following rule for spellcasting.

Can't speak, cast spells, or any action that requires hands or speech.
Shifting doesn't break concentration on spells already cast.

That pretty much seems to kibosh any spellcasting unless there is something in the skills or feats that allows casting without gestures and speech?

At 7th level the beast form can talk. But still can not cast spells.

At 20th level finally can cast spells while shifted.

Seems fairly balanced. Im sure some may grouse about not being able to cast.

As I said upthread it seems like a 2e Druid with a bit of 3e/4e ( I assume they get at-wills?)and explicit rules. I like it.

Im reading through the forms availible... Bear... cat... deer... horse... owl... TRICERATOPS??? er... wa?

Also the weasel seems to be missing part of its entry. Im guessing a cut-n-paste goof.

Dont see any at will powers, but one of the circles does get a quick spell recovery ability.

Druids can also blow a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell. IE: burn a level 2 slot to power a level 1 spell. All the memorized spells arent lost from memory. Just the access to the slots. Sort of a convoluted spell point system.

They can memorize 1 + druid level. And the spells can be any you have access to.

Quote from: Omega;700494Im reading through the forms availible... Bear... cat... deer... horse... owl... TRICERATOPS??? er... wa?

Also the weasel seems to be missing part of its entry. Im guessing a cut-n-paste goof.

Dont see any at will powers, but one of the circles does get a quick spell recovery ability.

Druids can also blow a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell. IE: burn a level 2 slot to power a level 1 spell. All the memorized spells arent lost from memory. Just the access to the slots. Sort of a convoluted spell point system.

They can memorize 1 + druid level. And the spells can be any you have access to.

The Circle of Land get spell recovery . Triceritops is the Shapeshifting circle. So it seems ONLY wizards and clerics get at-wills? If so I like it

FYI, the magic system is like Arcana Evolved mostly. Kind of like a 3e sorcerer with a spell list with the ability to use spell stots to modify spell effects etc.

You can know a bunch of spells but can only cast up to your slot limit with the creveat that wizards and clerics have a couple of at-will spells and depending which slot you use gives you effect. Example fireball in a 7 slot turns into DBF. Basically it's still vancian but a mix between the old version wizard and 3e sorcerer and AE. Intriguing.

Something like MM or Light is a cantrip so is at-will and your typical full magic user knows 3-4...personally I would have 1 social/exploration/combat but that's me.:)

Get rid of druids. Run them as nature priests.

Make shapeshifting a feat/class ability than anyone can buy as a high cost as long as it's built into some background type thingie. So Beornings or Barak or whatever.....

So what a nature priest that can transform buy the feat, want a beserk viking that changes to a bear, buy it, a thief that changes into a cat? sure

If the shapeshift ability is balanced then any class should be able to use it rather than tying it to a specific class.

If i used it in my heartbreaker it would be an ability you bought at 1st level that activated at 5th. It would come with 1 animal form adding a new form every 2 levels. It wouldn't change any of your attack or defence bonuses though except for size modification (small creatures get defence bonuses) but damage would change. HPs probably not but I woudl play with wounds instead.

Clerics have some at will abilities it looks like.

Mages seem to work just like druids. Spell slots as a sort of spell point system for the memorized spell inventory to be called from.
At 18th level they get a 1st and 2nd level spell they can cast at will. and once per day can swap out what those two are. weird.
The schools have various tricks, some are automatic small buff sorts.

Looks like bonuses are gained at level steps so its not all instant at wills all over the place.

Quote from: Omega;700521Clerics have some at will abilities it looks like.

Mages seem to work just like druids. Spell slots as a sort of spell point system for the memorized spell inventory to be called from.
At 18th level they get a 1st and 2nd level spell they can cast at will. and once per day can swap out what those two are. weird.
The schools have various tricks, some are automatic small buff sorts.

Interesting...they are going down FantasyCraft's path with interesting differences

The big differences I see is FC wizards have a much smaller spell list,  healing is a wizard spell, advantage is they throw 1st level spells at-will at 10th level and 2nd level at 20th Very similar...yes they are learning.:)

Yes, white wizard's are your baseline healers given ClericPriests are path driven with 8-10 supernatural effects give or take in FC.

I would like the at-will stuff to occur at 5/15 instead of 18 and all in. No problem that is an easy houserule.

Edit: I forgot that 5e has cantrips and they are at-will so it's so similar yet different compared to FantasyCraft, interesting...

The big differences I see is FC wizards have a much smaller spell list,  healing is a wizard spell, advantage is they throw 1st level spells at-will at 10th level and 2nd level at 20th Very similar...yes they are learning.:)

All druids get two cantrips, too. Land Druids have one more. (Or was it two more? Not sure about the number without looking it up.) The Ranger and the Paladin do not.

And except for Bard, all casters use the same method of spell preparation, keeping slots and spells prepared separate. It was first introduced in the 3.5 Spirit Shaman class.

Quote from: Omega;700472Seems fairly balanced. Im sure some may grouse about not being able to cast.

Grouse isn't one of the wild-shape options available. :D

Damn. No "I hide flawlessly as a mouse and call lightning"



I like shape change, but I am not fond of casting spells while in a different form.

Quote from: Votan;700443I thought Elven chain was 2e; in 1E they gave casting in armor as an example in the dual class section (as an example of terrible, terrible rule placement).

Elven chain is in 1e Unearthed Arcana, and, I believe, the DMG somewhere too (as an even more restricted option).

I forgot that cantrips are your at-will spells and most full spellcasting classes get 2 with the option to get 1-2 more. 5e cantrips are comparable to other Dnd 1st level spells in most cases.

@Bill, that's only possible at 20th level unless it gets changed or there is some feat not shown yet.

Quote from: Marleycat;700610I forgot that cantrips are your at-will spells and most full spellcasting classes get 2 with the option to get 1-2 more. 5e cantrips are comparable to other Dnd 1st level spells in most cases.

@Bill, that's only possible at 20th level unless it gets changed or there is some feat not shown yet.

I figure at level 20 its ok to cast spells while 'in microbe form hiding in  the enemies lungs'

Its only at lower leves than 20 I don't like casting in animal form.

Quote from: Imp;700604Elven chain is in 1e Unearthed Arcana, and, I believe, the DMG somewhere too (as an even more restricted option).

'Half Elven' chain emerged in one of my dnd games.

An elven warrior was literally cut in half by a Mariliths blade barrier.

He was eventually raised from the dead by a wish spell the party had been hoarding for emergencies.

When the elf took stock of his equipment, his eleven chain armor was in two pieces. he went to the only armorsmith in the are, a human, to get it repaired.

The human smith lacked the skill to make elven chain, so he knit the eleven chain back together with links of lowly human chain mail.

Voila!!!

The legend of the 'Half Elven' Chain Mail was born.

Bards, Clerics and Druids in 5e get a few cantrips.
Rangers and Paladins do not.
Mages have no mention of cantrips in their description, but have cantrips listed in the mage spell list.

Cantrips are "at will"

Quote from: Marleycat;700461It was. Only played 1e 3-4 times. 2e is my old school Dnd.:)

Fair enough.  :-)

1E was heavy on the atmosphere but had some . . . complex and unclear . . . rules here and there.

Quote from: Bill;700588Damn. No "I hide flawlessly as a mouse and call lightning"



I like shape change, but I am not fond of casting spells while in a different form.

Well in Next at least they dont get that till very late in the game. Level 20 I believe. Even with the new HP boosts and faster recovery rate its still going to be a push to hit high levels.

Quote from: One Horse Town;700560Grouse isn't one of the wild-shape options available. :D

Give em time. It will make a good counter for the Triceratops Im sure.

Quote from: mhensley;699874I dislike that somewhere along the line the druid became all about being a shapeshifter and less about being a priest of nature.

I hate that somewhere along the way the Druid became all about being a priest of nature and less about being an educated poet and arbiter of laws.

Quote from: James Gillen;699970I've always associated Druids more with human sacrifice, but hey.

JG

Caesarian propoganda

Quote from: TristramEvans;700843I hate that somewhere along the way the Druid became all about being a priest of nature and less about being an educated poet and arbiter of laws.

Probably started around the same time they stopped stacking stones and started becoming adventurers.

D&D druids oft come across as a sort of counterpart to the classical Greek dryad/nymph nature spirit.

What was the current popular idea of druids around the time D&D was written? Where did Gygax and co get the idea?

I think Shapechanger should be a class of its own.

A Druid could get limited shapechanging along with various nature priest kinda stuff, but shapechanging shouldn't be what it's all about. Basically I think a druid should be a variant priest. But then I liked 2e's take, with lots of different kinds of priests tailored to their gods and religions - a priest of the God of Plants would have some stuff in common with a priest of the God of Agriculture but there'd be important differences, frex.

If one has to take a "nuschool" approach, I'd say divide the Druid into three:
1) Shapechanger Druid*
2) Summoner Druid**
3) General Nature Druid***

*=main ability: shapechanging. Little else, spellcasting no better than Ranger/Paladin
**=main ability: summoning animals to fight for him. Other spell ability limited.
***=various spells having to do with plants, elements, weather, etc. No shapechanging or summoning

But that's really too nuschool for me. I think.

I don't mind Next's "shapechanger vs spell user" divide mind.

I'm fairly aware they're NEVAH EVAH going to return to the way of doing things of my fave ed, 2ed. ;)

Quote from: TristramEvans;700852Caesarian propoganda

Agreed.

Quote from: Omega;700856D&D druids oft come across as a sort of counterpart to the classical Greek dryad/nymph nature spirit.

Yep.

Back in AD&D this was extra strong, what with Druids having immunity to the Charm ability of such beings, and generally speaking their languages (wich they still did in 3e).

In the fun pseudo-OSR game Mazes & Minotaurs, the core classes include Dryad :)
The Dryad basically being an all-female nature-oriented spellcaster class with fun powers.

Quote from: TristramEvans;700843I hate that somewhere along the way the Druid became all about being a priest of nature and less about being an educated poet and arbiter of laws.

Haha yes.

The D&D Druid has more in common with Odin than Oghma. Well as in, the D&D Druids make more sense as Norse sorcerers than Celtic priests. Allthough shapechanging was a thing in both mythologies. But the whole "change into a bird to scout, then change into a different kinda bird to attack, etc" thing is very Norse. Well actually I think we stole it from the Finnish-Ugric-talking groups close by - Saami or Finns most likely. Odin being very similar to Sibirian and pre-Christian Finnish-Ugric shaman figures. By wich I mean very similar.

It's not a bad way to handle. Next is sounding pretty reasonable thses days.

I would like it if they did something like 2e's Complete book of druids (IIRC), in that the shapeschanging wasn't an all or nothing change.  You could take on aspects of the shape, like growing claws or somesuch.

I'd like to see a return to that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700974I would like it if they did something like 2e's Complete book of druids (IIRC), in that the shapeschanging wasn't an all or nothing change.  You could take on aspects of the shape, like growing claws or somesuch.

I'd like to see a return to that.

They need to make wild shape just another spell that druids can cast.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;700974I would like it if they did something like 2e's Complete book of druids (IIRC), in that the shapeschanging wasn't an all or nothing change.  You could take on aspects of the shape, like growing claws or somesuch.

I'd like to see a return to that.

That should be a spell like 3e. Done and simple given it's useful in all 3 pillars without specializing in shapechanging proper. I suppose it could be a feat but I would be very careful with that path or possibility.

OTOH, I dislike summoning as something a druid does given it's a specific style of wizardry imo

The Next system essentially splits the Druid into two sub-classes. spell focused and Shifter focused.

Quote from: Omega;701108The Next system essentially splits the Druid into two sub-classes. spell focused and Shifter focused.

Correct. And it's the best option in my opinion. 5e is looking pretty solid to me.

I just finished off the last playtest questionaire and noted some goofs and points that could be improved. But overall its not bad.

Quote from: Omega;701117I just finished off the last playtest questionaire and noted some goofs and points that could be improved. But overall its not bad.

What are some goofs and areas for improvement IYO? I am filling out the survey in a couple days and can include those as well.

Mostly for the druid. Its missing entries for otter and badger at least. Also the Weasel is missing part of its data. The Deer could possibly be beefed up on its damage from a d4 to a d6.

The mage is missing its entry for cantrips.

The critical system doesnt feel right. It works, but seems just one step too much math when the old system was fine for the most part.

The Death/Uncontiousness part was unsatisfying as mentioned elsewhere.

And just overall a little better organization of rules. Some are scattered around the sections. Resting and spell recovery are two that came to mind.

Quote from: Omega;701155And just overall a little better organization of rules. Some are scattered around the sections. Resting and spell recovery are two that came to mind.

They are playtest rules. It's safe to assume they'll be re-formatted from the ground up before publication.

Yes. But you want the players to not be lost before they even get to play.

And part of playtesting is pointing out where rules need better organization, clarification, syntax oddities, etc.

Quote from: TristramEvans;700852Caesarian propoganda

No, it was almost certainly true.  Some of the DETAILS may have been roman propaganda, but there's strong evidence these days that the Druids did indeed engage in human sacrifice.

Shapeshifting? Not so much.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;702905No, it was almost certainly true.  Some of the DETAILS may have been roman propaganda, but there's strong evidence these days that the Druids did indeed engage in human sacrifice.

Shapeshifting? Not so much.

RPGPundit

They were LARPERs who got into immersion a little too much...

Quote from: Omega;702924They were LARPERs who got into immersion a little too much...

:rotfl:

Quote from: RPGPundit;702905No, it was almost certainly true.  Some of the DETAILS may have been roman propaganda, but there's strong evidence these days that the Druids did indeed engage in human sacrifice.

Shapeshifting? Not so much.

RPGPundit

The ability to call lightning is also questionable.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;703050The ability to call lightning is also questionable.

JG

Well as long as they aren't running up my phone bill with these calls...

Quote from: Omega;703058Well as long as they aren't running up my phone bill with these calls...

Ba-dump-bump

To me the reason why shapeshifting doesn't really fit with the historical druids is because they were too advanced.  They were far too developed as a religious institution.

The viking Seidhr, on the other hand, were I think a lot closer to what the D&D druids look like.

Yes. But most fantasy Druids tend to be far removed from historical ones. Or were based on older interpretations of druids. Or were based on literary versions which sometimes idealize Druids as champions of nature.

In one of my own RPGs druids are very organized and employ blood sacrifice in their rituals. The trick is. The sacrifice cannot die during the ritual (and usually should not die soon after either.) They risk burnout less and have the greatest reserves of magic. They can also combine spells with other casters easier.
Downside being that if they do hit burnout they are effected the hardest from the disconnect. And the rituals can be interrupted by killing the sacrifice. (technically a donor.)

I was combining what was popular theory, speculation and fantasy at the time to build up something with some real world roots, but with some definite twists.

The original RS setting had druids noticing one of the worlds big secrets and becoming obsessed with finding out if it was true. And going a little nuts when they confirmed one of the basic world assumptions was totally wrong.