I want to respond to KenHR's comments, but I want to actually look the examples up in the book.

Quote from: KenHR;253722Moldvay was a subset of the D&D rules, and was explicitly packaged as such.  It was meant to ease new players and DMs into role-playing.  You can't treat that book as a complete system.  The Expert book added wilderness stuff.

But this I can comment on now...

We can't treat it as a complete system? WTF? For months, old schoolers have been going on and on about how it's a complete game, unlike WotC's starter boxed sets. Which is it, a complete game or not?

Seanchai

Quote from: RandallS;253831What on Earth does the Moldvay rules have to do what was in the three LBB -- the ones I mentioned in the post you replied to asking for page numbers -- or with how D&D was originally played.

"I was reading over the Moldvay rules last night and wondering why anyone would have EVER chosen to be a MU if they had gotten this set."

Quote from: RandallS;253831Also Moldvay isn't a complete set of D&D rules.

Again, WTF?! Aren't you one of the very people who said in previous threads that it was a complete game?

Quote from: RandallS;253831Perhaps that's how you and your friends played in 1981...

You keep saying that, but it's not how I played. I played Basic for a couple of weeks. I'm just parroting what you old schoolers have said about the game.

Quote from: RandallS;253831It isn't even how Moldvay/Cook D&D was intended to be played once one got beyond the limited rules provided as an introduction to the system in the Moldvay set and had the full rules from both sets available.

Maybe I misunderstood the OP....No: "So...for those of you who had the Basic box set and played a MU..."

Absolutely, you add a whole bunch of stuff to the set to make Magic Users more palatable. And, obviously, some people find them playable just as they are, but the question revolves around Basic Moldvay...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;254091Again, WTF?! Aren't you one of the very people who said in previous threads that it was a complete game?

I've never said that the Moldvay Basic Set was (or even was intended to be) a complete version of D&D. The same goes for the Holmes Basic Set or the Mentzer Basic Set.

QuoteAbsolutely, you add a whole bunch of stuff to the set to make Magic Users more palatable. And, obviously, some people find them playable just as they are, but the question revolves around Basic Moldvay...

1st level Magic-Users are every bit as playable in Moldvay as the are in OD&D, Holmes Basic or Mentzer Basic or AD&D 1E PROVIDED you play them intelligently and aren't playing them in some type of "must charge right in and fight everyone we meet because we can't think of any other way of handling encounters" (and then repeat this procedure in the next room) battlefest. NO first level character in any class does well at that in older editions of D&D as the games were not designed with that style of play in mind.  The rules could accommodate it with some stretching and houseruling but they were not designed for it.

Quote from: KenHR;253722The examples in Moldvay show players parleying with hobgoblins.  It even shows the DM making rulings on the fly for RP (Silverleaf's open hands).

Except the point of examples is to demonstrate the rules in action. If there isn't a rule about parleying, then it's just an example of some dude's campaign. And worthless.

Quote from: KenHR;253722The advice section on B60-61 has much that is RP-oriented in addition to purely mechanical suggestions.

I'm looking at that page now. Where?

Quote from: KenHR;253722The Retainers section on B21 mentions creating personae for NPCs...why do that if there was no RP in the game?

The extent of it literally is, "The DM must create the personalities of the NPCs who come to the character for an interview." There are nine paragraphs about retainers and one sentence about personality. Moreover, What the retainer actually does is then dictated by a character and the PC's Charisma score. Finally, having a personality doesn't necessarily lead to roleplaying any more than having a hair and eye color written down on the character sheet does. It's simply a guide to how the NPC will react, such as a Morale score.

Quote from: KenHR;253722There is a section on Languages on page B13.  These are included so PCs can interact with monsters and NPCs, i.e. role-play.

You and I must have very different ideas about what roleplaying is. If I'm playing an taciturn fighter whose family was killed by kobolds and then, in a dungeon, approach a kobold and say, "Hey, what up, dude? Listen, where's the treasure?" that ain't roleplaying.

Quote from: KenHR;253722No matter what you think of them, alignments were included to guide RP.

Alignments were added because of the source material.

Quote from: KenHR;253722The Introduction chapter of Moldvay touches on RP.

Quote from: KenHR;253722Module B2, which came with the Moldvay box, has a lot of advice that is RP-oriented.

I didn't bring that with me, but based on the strength of your other "evidence," I doubt it.

Seanchai