Ok, its one thing to become dead unintentionally... but in D&D you have all these dudes, necromancers, crazy wizards, and others, choosing intentionally to become high-powered Undead beings: Vampires, Liches, etc.
The question is: why? If you're high level in D&D you have so many ways to get reliably resurrected, and means to extend your human longevity, why would you choose, even if you were evil, to take on a form that is riddled with disadvantages, that any high-level cleric could theoretically turn to dust with a prayer and a wave, and that really offers very few benefits in return?
RPGPundit
Usually it's a about a broken heart. There was that elven chick and at first it was great. But after she left you decided you never wanted to feel love or anything again.
1) Probably not all methods are available in all times and locales.
2) Adventuring clerics, esp. high-level ones, may not be as common.
Otherwise, if I had a crack at quasi-immortality, I'd probably go with magic jar, which is highly flexible and even a lot less ghoulish than becoming a rotting cadaver.
Because who wants to have to eat or sleep or even breathe?
That's just time spent away from one's arcane studies.
Quote from: RPGPundit;448525The question is: why? If you're high level in D&D you have so many ways to get reliably resurrected, and means to extend your human longevity
I would reverse the question: why would a Cleric continually raise you from the dead or extend your life? Are non-divine means to extend your life (such as alchemical brews and the like) themselves coming without their own drawbacks (I as DM would surely implement some myself)?
Assuming some type of similarity between the game world's religions and our own, most Clerics will believe in some sort of afterlife or natural order or cycle in which your body dies and your spirit departs to higher realms, to be reincarnated or whatnot. Why a Cleric would go against his own religion is kind of beyond me, especially if it goes directly against the order of the world in some way. In the game world, I could certainly imagine examples of this happening (like say, an Emperor of the Church who felt so vindicated by his deity that he was raised over and over to keep fighting his crusade and fulfill his higher purpose), but that would be the sort of element that would come with dire warnings, and historical lessons of their own (the forementioned Emperor, by wanting to fight his crusade so much as to break the natural order of the world, ended up losing the favor of his deity, and ended up cursed, his armies with him, the whole religion wiped out, or worse).
an actual player: because of a comic strip called (IIRC) "Jerry the Vampire"
("Garfield" didn't turn out to be such a great idea, either.)
imaginary characters: preferring it to the alternative of being merely dead
QuoteIf you're high level in D&D you have so many ways to get reliably resurrected
??? What "D&D" are you smoking in that pipe? By the books with which I am well acquainted, resurrection is (A) uncertain, (B) possible no more times than the constitution score with which you started play, and (C) no remedy for conditions such as having reached your allotted span of years per the aging rules.
Quoteand means to extend your human longevity
... which, even if it also extends youth, merely delays death from aging and does nothing about other causes -- whereas undeath negates the former and either provides outright immunities to, or makes less likely, many of the latter (while introducing new vulnerabilities, 'tis true)
How much would a "Hit Only By Magic" feat be worth? How about an "At-Will Level Drain" power?
The main problem is that resurrection won't keep you from getting old.
Besides that, I'm not sure many deities would want to raise you. If you are evil and dead, the good won't have you back and the evil just wanted your soul anyway. If you were raised by some evil cleric, you would probably end up working for its god - failure to do so kills you or something.
Becoming a lich is the only way to take the god factor out.
The same reason why anyone does anything in D&D: for the KEWL POWERZ.
d12 hit dice.
Being a lich also carries with it the power of having a phylactery that automatically rezzes you when someone kills you. Now, in published materials this is always some showy box thing about arm's reach from the lich, but if you read around on the internet, you'll find tons of great ideas for disguising it, which can de facto make you impossible to stop permanently. Bonus points for coating it in a thin sheet of lead to block most detection spells for spotting it.
The D&D games I played in the 90s lichdom was usually the result of a failed attempt at apotheosis.
Quote from: misterguignol;448555The same reason why anyone does anything in D&D: for the KEWL POWERZ.
And the Chicks, don't forget the hawt Vampire Chicks!
Quote from: hanszurcher;448575The D&D games I played in the 90s lichdom was usually the result of a failed attempt at apotheosis.
I like that idea.
Heaven doesn't want you and hell's afraid you'll take over.
Maybe you're so full of hate that you want to spend your time roaming the negative material plane - when you're not utterly destroying the minds and bodies of pesky adventurers, or the scions of your enemies - looking for a way to end it all. I mean IT. ALL. Like, everything. The universe. It's the raison d'etre given to Acaerack in Return to the Tomb of Horrors, yeah?
of course, ultimately...
(http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/img/writers/spaceghost_l.jpg)
"BECAUSE IT'S MORE FANTASTICAL THAT WAY."
A few possible reasons:
(1) Lack of information or access to alternatives. Anyone can be bitten by a vampire and -- BAM! -- immortality (of a sort). The powerful spells you need to achieve non-undead longevity tend to expensive, so undead kind of become the immortality slums.
(Alternatively, one could imagine an ancient epoch in which those better alternatives didn't exist at all. So you might have an ancient generation of undead that just didn't have any other option and might even be bitter about all those youngsters walking on their immortal lawns.)
(2) A necro-fetish.
(3) Liches actually do have a large advantage: Their phylactery. Sure, eventually some fuckin' hobbit is going to toss it down a volcano or an obnoxious kid with a scar on his forehead is going to hunt them all down with a little help from his friends. But until then, there are few better guarantees than a good phylactery (or ten).
I had a player with an undead female necromancer in one of my games, she was polymorphed by a paladin using a scroll into a tree for about two game years after attacking the Paladin's party in a classic PvP alignment duel...
This started one of the longest wars ever in my game, lasted almost a year real time.
Was a blast to GM. Split the parties and had independent sessions for the good and evil parties and joint sessions whenever they attacked each other.
It strikes me that there doesn't seem to be very good reasons, except for the following:
1. It is involuntary, you are forced to.
2. It is accidental, you are reduced to an undead due to some error on your part ie. the example in this thread of Lichdom being the result of a failed attempt at apotheosis.
3. You are a fanatical devotee of a necromantic deity for some stupid reason, I guess.
But the whole "If I become undead I will live forever!!" thing is basically stupid; given the number of ways you can live basically forever as a human, once you hit a certain high level.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Melan;4485291) Probably not all methods are available in all times and locales.
2) Adventuring clerics, esp. high-level ones, may not be as common.
Otherwise, if I had a crack at quasi-immortality, I'd probably go with magic jar, which is highly flexible and even a lot less ghoulish than becoming a rotting cadaver.
Magic Jar doesn't work if your natural timespan is up. IIRC the rules specify that explicitly.
@RPGPundit:
GM fiat.
Clerical magic needs approval.
Arcane magic does not.
Pundit doesn't get fantastical things, film at 11.
It varies from version to version, but several editions of D&D, while making early death a curable affliction, make a point of showing that extending the eventual mortal lifespan by a long time to be very difficult. Most lifespan extenders have a cap, diminishing returns, or both.
It is also going to depend on the campaign world. As far as deliberately choosing undeath, as opposed to accidentally becoming undead...
The means to achieve immortality may be unknown or lost, as Melan and Alexandrian pointed out. Think of this as the "DM did not buy the Master's Set" situation.
The path to immortality might require more time and effort than the candidate can afford. If the candidate is already ancient or dying, undergoing an undeath ritual from the deathbed might the last option left.
Or the candidate may lack patience, choosing to become a vampire or what have you early in his career, shortsightedly.
The candidate might not be talented enough to achieve living immortality. In some cases the question "why would anyone become a Lich when they could just live forever" might be equivalent to "why would anyone work a depressing 9 to 5 job they hate when they could just be a movie star?"
If "living" immortality requires an immortal patron of some kind, the candidate for undeath may have some stance of rebellion against the existing immortals. I don't want to restart the "atheist = daddy issues" argument with Pundit here; spite against the gods is a recurring trait in fantastical characters which does not necessarily reflect the stance of the player/GM.
Alexandrian suggested a death fetish and pundit referred to following a necromantic deity for "some stupid reason." Some people are in fact fucked up, and in a fantastic world some people might be fantastically so. Jeffrey Dahmer thought keeping a chopped off head in the refrigerator was just great, which is an idea I am not too keen on, but that doesn't mean someone isn't that crazy.
The candidate may regard being a living thing that eats, breathes, wakes up with morning wood, etc. with a Cronenberg-style disgust and horror. I could imagine a newly minted lich lying among beetles and grubs to have the last of the vile flesh cleansed away, etc.
The candidate might see undeath as an escape from fleshly desires and view becoming undead as a kind of ascetic path. I remember a Ph.D student who used to come into a bar I worked at, who went on a tirade about how much he hated that putting the time and effort into getting laid distracted him from thinking about string theory. "Sometimes I want to just hack it off," he said.
Pundit, I think you are missing something. Think of it this way. Why would anyone "Choose" to become a serial killer or mass murderer? Why would anyone chose to become a Nazi Prison Camp Commander?
Some Folks jest aint right in the head...
Seriously, it isn't an option that a Sane Person would choose but I think that's the whole point...
I do really like the idea of a botched attempt to become a deity.
That aside, imagine a world with 15 wizards strong enough to cast the spell and become a lich. 3 of those guys are running the world, 5 of the rest are happy with their lives, the other 7 are still ambitious.
Of those 7, only two are powerful and young enough to expect a higher station.
Of the last 5, 3 are afraid of death.
2 of them are assholes.
I think it is well within reason to think at least one of those powerful, fearful, nasty and old magical ambitious bastards will cast the spell and take his place at the top.
Yeah, but I've always wondered. What is step four?
1) Magic user
2) Lich
3) Demilich
4) ???
5) Apotheosis
The Arcanum by Bard Games (1985) had a Necromancer class that derived its powers from pacts with demonic patrons. Although Necromancers cannot be brought back to life if slain, they have a Wolfram & Hart-esque perpetuity clause in their pacts and will return as undead in thirteen days. Type of undead was determined randomly.
Quote from: RPGPundit;448682It strikes me that there doesn't seem to be very good reasons, except for the following:
1. It is involuntary, you are forced to.
2. It is accidental, you are reduced to an undead due to some error on your part ie. the example in this thread of Lichdom being the result of a failed attempt at apotheosis.
3. You are a fanatical devotee of a necromantic deity for some stupid reason, I guess.
But the whole "If I become undead I will live forever!!" thing is basically stupid; given the number of ways you can live basically forever as a human, once you hit a certain high level.
RPGPundit
Well then, please regail us with
your myriad of preferred methods of achieving immortality. You know, the ones that have all the advantages and none of the drawbacks of undeath. By all means, enlighten us.
In a low magic setting like Ravenloft (at least the way I run it, where raise dead and resurrection are hard to come by) I could see the advantage (especially since many of the undead are quite powerful using any of the creation rules in the Van Richten Guides).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;448788In a low magic setting like Ravenloft (at least the way I run it, where raise dead and resurrection are hard to come by) I could see the advantage (especially since many of the undead are quite powerful using any of the creation rules in the Van Richten Guides).
Becoming undead in Ravenloft is also like trying to put yourself up for a promotion. I imagine it's a good way to get the Dark Powers to take notice of you and think "Now that guy has management potential...let's make him CEO of Darkovia."
I always thought they do it just because they don't feel like dying. Sure, you can increase your longevity by who knows how much, but in the end you'll eventually kick the bucket. And when you're Evil Wizard Lord Nihilus Death Von Doom, it's not like there's a whole bunch of people ready to resurrect you if you happen to get toasted.
Plus, from what I remember about the resurrection process in D&D, it costs quite much and has the chance of something going wrong, like a hoighty-toighty paladin bursting into the room where your loyal minions are trying to resurrect you and introducing his great sword to their spleens. Some just prefer to make sure they wont die from natural causes than take their chances with resurrection.
Quote from: Ramrod;448795I always thought they do it just because they don't feel like dying. Sure, you can increase your longevity by who knows how much, but in the end you'll eventually kick the bucket. And when you're Evil Wizard Lord Nihilus Death Von Doom, it's not like there's a whole bunch of people ready to resurrect you if you happen to get toasted.
Plus, from what I remember about the resurrection process in D&D, it costs quite much and has the chance of something going wrong, like a hoighty-toighty paladin bursting into the room where your loyal minions are trying to resurrect you and introducing his great sword to their spleens. Some just prefer to make sure they wont die from natural causes than take their chances with resurrection.
Not really. Outside of some editions use of a Ressurection Survival check, it's rather standard. Prepare the spell, get the components ready, cast spell and welcome subject back to the living. It's as reliable as it gets, and once you're able to return the dead to the living you're also able (or will presently) to permanently extend their lifespan by some means or another. High-level magic in D&D is very, very powerful indeed and far too few GMs and setting designers take that into account when thinking through such things as the Pundit asks. Seriously, folks, Undeath is for suckers.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;448696Pundit doesn't get fantastical things, film at 11.
Its not about getting it or not, its about how to have it make sense in the setting. I actually love the idea of Lichdom as "failed apotheosis" for example; it ties into concepts that exist in both western and eastern alchemy (particularly the latter, with its "false immortals" and whatnot).
RPGPundit
Quote from: IMLegend;448787Well then, please regail us with your myriad of preferred methods of achieving immortality. You know, the ones that have all the advantages and none of the drawbacks of undeath. By all means, enlighten us.
It depends on the version of D&D, but all of them have better alternatives than something where a high-level character can point at you and turn you to dust.
In general, resurrection spells (combined with contingency spells), wishes, longevity potions, etc. all combine to mean that someone can have a very very long lifespan indeed, with zero risk of accidental or violent death being permanent.
In some levels of D&D you can become a god just by basically getting high enough in level.
In RC D&D, you can become a god by following one of four particular recipes; which are hard but by no means so hard that becoming a lich looks better by comparison.
I look at the fact that I've had lots of players over the years who like to be "bad guy" PCs and whatnot, but NOT ONE has ever intentionally wanted to become any kind of undead, as a sign that people in general would have little reason to want to become such a thing.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditIt depends on the version of D&D, but all of them have better alternatives than something where a high-level character can point at you and turn you to dust.
Really?
Quote from: AD&D 1st PHBDisintegrate
Level: 6
This spell causes matter to vanish. It will affect even matter (or energy) of a magical nature, such as Bigby's Forceful Hand, but not a globe of invulnerability or an anti-magic shell. Disintegration is instantaneous, and its effects are permanent. Any living thing can be affected, even undead, and non-living matter... Creatures, and magical material with a saving throw, which successfully save versus the spell are not affected.
Please, do enlighten us. Just what are these alternatives?
Quote from: RPGPundit;448857In RC D&D, you can become a god by following one of four particular recipes; which are hard but by no means so hard that becoming a lich looks better by comparison.
Then basically you're asking us how lichdom would make sense in a world run with Mentzer/RC D&D where a character might get to level 36 and become a god,
since these particular rules (and paths to godhood) actually do not exist in any other version of the game.Well, I imagine that many, many adventurers die on their way to level 36. If that doesn't happen in your games, then maybe that's your answer right there - maybe you're just too soft on your players. Lichdom would then represent a shortcut for the coward or the ignorant who would want to grab POWER NOW!!1! You know, like the bad guys of classic fantasy movies.
Quote from: RPGPundit;448857In general, resurrection spells (combined with contingency spells), wishes, longevity potions, etc. all combine to mean that someone can have a very very long lifespan indeed, with zero risk of accidental or violent death being permanent.
All these things are basically stretches of the spells described in the PHB and magic items described in the DMG, because none actually give you godhood/immortality as described. Based on the description of the
wish spell, for instance, I would actually actively search for a loophole in your exact phrasing of the (poorly considered)
wish. Combinations of spells might result in unpredictable side effects, system shock rolls and the like. Longevity brews might become increasingly addictive and cease to work. In other words, you won't get your way to godhood by just gaming spells and magic items at my table. You can make your way to such a level of power in the campaign, but that'd be a major achievement that be worked out throughout the game, not just a matter of picking the right spells and combos with the rules.
Spite.
As people in real life choose to become suicide bombers my credibility isn't strained by imaginary magical people choosing to become undead.
To Explore Space
Nutrition, respiration and hydration not a problem; immunity to radiation and cold; lifespan that facilitates space travel.
Quote from: RPGPundit;448857...
In some levels of D&D you can become a god just by basically getting high enough in level.
In RC D&D, you can become a god by following one of four particular recipes; which are hard but by no means so hard that becoming a lich looks better by comparison.
...
Didn't the fifth path to immortality, Sphere Entropy, start with becoming undead?
And I believe the paths to immortality also required the assistance/patronage of the immortals. I do remember reading in a supplement someplace that a magic-user (Alphaks?) had been rejected by the Sphere of Energy so he instead became a lich supplicant of Entropy.
But that path was verboten to PCs.
Religious observance - ie worshipping a God of undeath. Only the dead are truly pure.
No other alternative being open to achieve immortality and a mighty drive to accomplish it.
Campaign considerations. (see above)
Tragic circumstances. (maybe see above)
So, basically, character driven concerns rather than rules based ones.
Quote from: RPGPundit;448857...
In general, resurrection spells (combined with contingency spells), wishes, longevity potions, etc. all combine to mean that someone can have a very very long lifespan indeed, with zero risk of accidental or violent death being permanent.
...
I was always pretty generous when it came to extending the shelf-life of player-characters. Though, I did make them work for resurrection.
I seem to recall quite a few alternatives to undeath suggested in supplements. My favorite being found in an early edition of Dungeon. Magic paints that when used to create a portrait gave the subject un-dieing youth. Very Dorian Gray.
When Monster Manual II came out, everyone wanted to be a shade.
Also, at least in AD&D, the undead could not progress through levels.
Pundit seems to conveniently ignore the possibility that just as mortal players can use various magic items to extend their lives, maybe, just maybe, that 27th level lich found the time over the centuries to create a magic item or two that nullifies the major disadvantages of undeath.
In all bar Menzer D&D, the path to godhood is all but non existant. There may be ways, but becomming a lich is much easier. Not to mentiont he power up. No need to eat, sleep or breath, immune to any number of attacks. If we are talking 3.5 the powerup is huge. Forget the fact the phylactury makes you pretty much unkillable, you get massive boosts to AC, HP and key ability scores like intelligence, charisma and wisdom, something all serious spell casters always lust after.
Then there is the roleplaying aspect. Regardless of mechanistic reasons, maybe its a cool roleplaying choice. In the current PF campaign I'm playing in one of the characters has embraced lichdom (yes, he worships a god of death).
Immortal Wizards wear pointy hats. Liches wear iron crowns. I'd go with Lich.
Quote from: RPGPundit;448857I look at the fact that I've had lots of players over the years who like to be "bad guy" PCs and whatnot, but NOT ONE has ever intentionally wanted to become any kind of undead, as a sign that people in general would have little reason to want to become such a thing.
RPGPundit
I noticed this in my games too (which have tended to be evil character friendly). Many sought mundane paths to power, but I think only one ever tried to become undead (in this case a lich if I remember).
I've always assumed this was for one of two reasons. The first is simply metagaming. By becoming a lich, they would potentially be turned into an NPC or at the least rupture the party somehow. The second is that its like you say, people wouldn't really want to become an undead abomination just as a matter of human nature. Even evil people might draw the line at becoming undead.
I like to focus on the horrific elements of the condition. The unnatural wrongness of the undead, the cold grave-worm flesh of the vampire, the tragic hubris of the lich. The spooky stuff.
Most of the undead in my fantasy games are also morbidly deranged. I modeled my liches on famous lunatics from fact and fiction, e.g., Dr. Jacob Freudstein, Jame "Buffalo Bill" Gumb and Enriqueta MartÃ. Even without options for life extension undeath would be a path only the insane or deluded would embrace. Decidedly not a sexy character option.
But that's just my trip.
Quote from: Benoist;448861Then basically you're asking us how lichdom would make sense in a world run with Mentzer/RC D&D where a character might get to level 36 and become a god, since these particular rules (and paths to godhood) actually do not exist in any other version of the game.
I did mention other editions; while the RC gives fixed and explicit paths to godhood, most of the others imply that you can become a divine being, if not have explicit mechanics governing it (I'm pretty sure I remember 3e having lots of divine level beings around; I don't know if 4e does... yet).
QuoteWell, I imagine that many, many adventurers die on their way to level 36. If that doesn't happen in your games, then maybe that's your answer right there - maybe you're just too soft on your players.
Sure, plenty of adventurers die... 99% of them between levels 1-5 or so. After that, Resurrection abounds, unless you're changing the default rules of the game.
QuoteLichdom would then represent a shortcut for the coward or the ignorant who would want to grab POWER NOW!!1! You know, like the bad guys of classic fantasy movies.
Sure, and I could kind of see that with vampirism; non-powerful types getting immortality of a sort combined with a big power boost. But to be a Lich you have to already be a pretty high-level wizard, and Liches are usually presented as being incredibly clever; regardless of how EEEVIL he is, why would a high-level wizard (barring being some kind of fanatical worshiper of a god of undeath) choose to become a lich when it actually represents, at best, a lateral move in the scale of power and survivability?
As for the Disintegration spell, you get to save against that; and anti-magic, whereas fuck all protects you from most anti-undead measures.
QuoteBased on the description of the wish spell, for instance, I would actually actively search for a loophole in your exact phrasing of the (poorly considered) wish.
Sure, if you're one of those dick GMs who wants to make Wish go from being the most powerful effect in the game into one of the most useless ones.
QuoteCombinations of spells might result in unpredictable side effects, system shock rolls and the like. Longevity brews might become increasingly addictive and cease to work. In other words, you won't get your way to godhood by just gaming spells and magic items at my table. You can make your way to such a level of power in the campaign, but that'd be a major achievement that be worked out throughout the game, not just a matter of picking the right spells and combos with the rules.
Maybe so, but then you're dealing with the subject of a different thread: "houserules for making undeath seem more advantageous" or something along those lines.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;449343Sure, if you're one of those dick GMs who wants to make Wish go from being the most powerful effect in the game into one of the most useless ones.
It's a question of interpreting the
wish literally, as to protect integrity of the game and/or the game world from being wrecked by a spell. Of course dickish DMs will be dicks about it, like everything else. But actually interpreting the wish in ways that enhance the game instead of providing an instant "win" button is the any DM's purview.
"Greedy desires will usually end in disasters for the wisher." - Limited Wish spell description, AD&D PHB, p. 88.
"Regardless of what is wished for, the exact terminology of the wish spell is likely to be carried through. (This discretionary power of the referee is necessary in order to maintain game balance. As wishing another character dead would be grossly unfair, for example, your DM might well advance the spell caster to a future period where the object is no longer alive, i.e. putting the wishing character out of the campaign.)" - Wish spell description, AD&D PHB, p. 94.
Wish is a powerful spell, and it should remain so. But it is also dangerous to use it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;449343Maybe so, but then you're dealing with the subject of a different thread: "houserules for making undeath seem more advantageous" or something along those lines.
RPGPundit
I don't call that "fixing." I call that DMing.
Quote from: RPGPundit;449343I did mention other editions; while the RC gives fixed and explicit paths to godhood, most of the others imply that you can become a divine being, if not have explicit mechanics governing it (I'm pretty sure I remember 3e having lots of divine level beings around; I don't know if 4e does... yet).
There is a world of difference between fixed and explicit paths to godhood and the implication that it is vaguely possible.
For example, 1e's Deities & Demigods suggests that if a mortal fits some loose but high criteria of power, and already has a religion around him as a mortal, and is a loyal and favored servant of an existing god, the mortal
may, if the god so decides, be sent on a series of quests, with which, if the god is pleased,
may choose to elect the mortal to a lesser position in the celestial bureaucracy, so to speak, after a certain amount of faithful and loyal servitude, the god
may then choose to sponsor the mortal into divinity.
So it could happen, but whether it does is almost entirely out of the mortals's control; it's not something he can actively undertake of his own will. As the powerful wizard nears his mortal end, he may come to think that, despite all his achievements, no, he is not going to get the holy phone call saying report to the nearest cloud for apotheosis after all. Whereas becoming a Lich is seemingly something he can set out to do and can accomplish himself as long as he doesn't fuck up the ritual itself or something like that.
Quote from: Benoist;448861Combinations of spells might result in unpredictable side effects, system shock rolls and the like. Longevity brews might become increasingly addictive and cease to work. In other words, you won't get your way to godhood by just gaming spells and magic items at my table. You can make your way to such a level of power in the campaign, but that'd be a major achievement that be worked out throughout the game, not just a matter of picking the right spells and combos with the rules.
Quote from: RPGPundit;449343Maybe so, but then you're dealing with the subject of a different thread: "houserules for making undeath seem more advantageous" or something along those lines.
Not necessarily houseruling, though - looking at 1e again, if you take the longevity potion, for each one you drink, there is a 1% cumulative chance that it will fail to work and undo the effects of all the previous potions. So even if you've lived centuries on potions, eventually undeath would prove safer than the risk of all those centuries catching up to you after one drink too many. This is just one example, but I do not think it unreasonable to contest the position of "when in doubt, assume living forever is an easy and reliable proposition." If your campaign is set up to make living immortality or divine ascension just as easy and as widely available as becoming undead, I would not expect many undead, but that is not saying much.
The broader issue I see here is that the question arises from how much a GM takes the printed game rules to make strong implications about the function of the game world. For my part, I do not; I tend view the rules as a convenience to aid the ability of the players to play a game in that world. If emulation of the game world is the goal, no set of rules will do that perfectly (part of the genius of having a live GM), and myself, I can deal with allowing the setting as it is presented to trump what the system has to say about the setting, understanding the system used as a compromise to keep the game rolling.
Quote from: Benoist;449401It's a question of interpreting the wish literally, as to protect integrity of the game and/or the game world from being wrecked by a spell. Of course dickish DMs will be dicks about it, like everything else. But actually interpreting the wish in ways that enhance the game instead of providing an instant "win" button is the any DM's purview.
Yeah, the advice you quoted is stupid. There are far better ways of going about this, namely being clear about what a Wish can and cannot do. It would be better, in fact, to just say "nothing happens" than to intentionally twist around every little detail of a wish to give some horrific opposite result. It would be much better, in fact, to just not have a Wish spell at all if that's your opinion on it.
Unless you're dealing with a CURSED ring or scroll or wand or whatever of Wishing, the Wish spell should be able to actually be the most powerful spell in the game. And whatever limits you want to place on it should be in the form of creating strictures and guidelines, not in the form of turning the spell into an opportunity to headfuck with your players.
RPGPundit
Uhm because Gods don't want more immortal competition then they've already got with fiends, celestials, and other outsiders...
Plus Undead last longer than your average Immortal. :P