QuoteI think the earliest proto-prestige class would actually be the paladin from Supplement I: Greyhawk.

Anybody found any "Greyhawk" in there?

I'd go with the AD&D1 Bard for first prestige class.  A character needed to have fighter, thief, and druid levels to enter it, IIRC.

-O

Quote from: obrynI'd go with the AD&D1 Bard for first prestige class.  A character needed to have fighter, thief, and druid levels to enter it, IIRC.

-O

Did anyone know anyone who actually played a 1e bard?  It took a year or more of play just to qualify.

Quote from: SettembriniAnybody found any "Greyhawk" in there?

Ummm,... that illo of the enigmatic stone head?

Quote from: NicephorusDid anyone know anyone who actually played a 1e bard?  It took a year or more of play just to qualify.

My older brother did it. I can't remember his character's name..

Quote from: NicephorusDid anyone know anyone who actually played a 1e bard?  It took a year or more of play just to qualify.

Eric in my old junior high/high school group played a bard once.  He used the fastest track possible (lowest fight and thief levels to qualify) and we basically let him gimp along behind us leeching XPs during the dodgy dual-classing portion of the scheme.  And then he lorded his newfound powers over us.  That was pretty dickerly, but we were just kids.

Three words:  "Second System Effect"

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_effect

Quote from: John MorrowThree words:  "Second System Effect"

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_effect

That syndrome even more accurately describes BESM Second Edition (and eventually Tri-Stat dX).

Mr. Morrow, thank you for that link!

Quote from: jhkimThe Rules Cyclopedia in 1991 was the cap of this evolution, put together by Aaron Allston.  Basically, they were more willing to change, revise, and improve within the Basic D&D line -- being less concerned about backwards compatibility.

I believe it was Monte Cook that expressed regret that they didn't push 3e even further than the did in an effort to improve the magic system.  Basically the assumptions of the past that 'got you were you are' in the marketplace often become the deadweight that holds you back from moving forward.

TSR On The Ropes

JVC entered the picture because Gary and Frank thought the new game would do better if it had a multi-media debut. Along with the RPG, a computer game and a series of novels. Roc Publishing would handle the latter, while JVC would do the former. However, JVC wanted a few changes. First, they wanted a fantasy game. Second, they had a better name for the system.

Now Gary hadn't thought of a name for his new system before GDW agreed to publish it. After some thinking he came up with, "Infinite Adventures". JVC insisted on "Dangerous Dimensions", and being the 2 ton gorilla in the partnership, they got their way.

It's entirely possible Williams would've let Gygax's new toy slip boy, but she couldn't let an RPG known as "Dangerous Dimensions" slide. It was obvious what JVC wanted, and that was a name people would confuse with D&D. Especially with the name Gary Gygax attached to it.

So TSR threatened legal action, and JVC was persuaded to back off. The system was renamed Dangerous Journeys.

Unfortunately Lorraine's back was up. That perfidious fool Gary Gygax was going to publish an RPG. A fantasy RPG at that. Even worse, GDW was putting as much of their scarce resources as they could spare from the re-launch of Traveller behind it. This was an insult not to be borne.

So TSR sued Omega Helios and GDW for publishing an RPG. That's what it basically comes down to, Lorraine Williams sued Gary Gygax for writing an RPG and having somebody publish it.

So people from both TSR and GDW had to make court appearances and give depositions. It meant they didn't have the time to work on projects. Which meant product wasn't available on time, or if it was on time it suffered from lack of development, editing, or play-testing. Considering how TSR malfunctioned during this period, it hurt them and hurt them badly.

To shorten an already lengthy tale, for all intents and purposes TSR lost. The judge on the case was leaning in GDW and Omega Helios' favor, and was making decisions regarding copyright and trademark contrary to TSR's desires. So the company made the defendents an offer. That being, we settle out of court, but you have to sell us the rights to the Dangerous Journeys system and anything published under it.

Now, what was JVC up to during this time? Well, keeping in touch with their partners wasn't big on their list. Development of the computer game was slow, buggy, and in the hands of somebody with an obsession for including every neat trick he read about in obscure computer journals. Then JVC added another computer company to help them along, and that meant more delays.

But, finally, the thing got done and JVC etc. annouced the release of the Dangerous Journeys computer game. About three months after the principals in the suit agreed to the settlement.

Gary Gygax once wrote to me to say that if he and Frank Chadwick had only known about this, they would've refused TSR's offer. If they had there's no telling how the RPG industry may have worked out. But they didn't know, so they did accept, and two old game publishers were left mortally wounded.

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So now we come to the end of this installment. Next time, AD&D tries to digest DJ, and the Dille Family Trust cuts the Umbilical.

BTW, once the final part is done the whole thing may be posted as an article to the site as a whole. Be sure to include a link to my blog with it.

This has been a great, sophisticated analysis of an important part of Gaming history, Mythusmage. Thanks!

RPGPundit

Yeah great stuff.

This is the End, My Friend

When we left TSR, they had just settled a lawsuit against GDW and Omega Helios, and received ownership of the Dangerous Journeys system and the Dangerous Journeys: Mythus game. Now, what to do with the thing.

Well, being TSR, they decided to try selling the game. A potential competitor to D&D. And they tried selling it through regular bookstores. Didn't work. The copies they got from GDW didn't move and were eventually returned.

At the same time it was becoming apparent that sales of AD&D were dropping. Too much contradictory stuff. Too much stuff players had to have to play the game. Advanced Dungeons and Dragons needed a thorough revision, a third edition if you would. But this was the Lorraine Williams TSR, a company committed to half-measures. So TSR produced a revised 2nd edition. The Player's and Dungeon Master's option books.

Which is where DJ comes back into the picture, for one last time. People read through the Mythus book, and liked some of what they read. The revised 2nd edition of AD&D included such things as sub-characteristics and "spell singing" (though that was more like spell dancing).

Unfortunately the revision was not the complete correction and consolidation the game needed. Even worse, TSR kept producing items designed before the revised core books. Rather than clearing up discrepencies and contradictions, TSR had made matters worse.

Even so, it wasn't AD&D2e that brought TSR down. That was thanks to three events. One was the decision by Random House (TSR's bookstore distributor) to call in the tab. Second was the collectable dice game, Dragon Dice. Which TSR mishandled atrociously. But the most important was the decision by the Dille Family Trust to cut live support.

It wasn't just the loss of funding, they also threatened to have Lorraine forced off the trust. A threat to her standard of living. Her attempts to sell the company became serious.

You see, Williams had been trying to sell TSR ever since she took it over. Most ever hobby or mainstream gaming event she went to saw her pitching TSR to anybody who'd listen. Now she had motivation.

The decision by TSR's printer to refuse any more job orders until TSR paid their past debt put additional impetus on the need to sell. As did the impending chapter 7 bankruptcy.

Enter Peter Adkison and Wizards of the Coast.

People who know Peter will tell you that he can be a scary man when he's ticked. Peter is a long time D&D fan. Peter was not about to see the RPG that got him into the hobby wind up in a dust bin somewhere, thanks to another workfare program for bankruptcy lawyers.

Peter Adkison laid down the law to Lorraine Williams. She could sell to him at her terms, or see TSR get broken up and the parts sold at auction. Now Peter could've gotten D&D at action, but only after months, if not years, of legal wrangling, backroom deals, and a lot of headaches. Buying TSR outright, and settling TSR's various legal entanglements,  would save a lot of time and money in the long run.

Finding herself over a barrel, and about to get roundly buggered by a long line of irate people, Williams agreed to Adkison's terms. But did get a few terms in of her own. (One of those, so I've heard, was the agreement that Wizards would not return ownership of DJ to Gyagx, or sell it to any other party. Yes, she is that petty.)

Which brings us up to today. There's a lot more that can be said about the Lorraine Williams TSR, but I'm not up on what happened where Mayfair Games and other companies are concerned. What I have presented in these comments is but a part of the story of the death of TSR. At best they were but illustrative of why TSR failed, and why AD&D2e ended up the way it did. An example of a corporate culture with no focus, no goals, no clue.

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That, at long last, ends this series. Permission is hereby granted to post it in it's entirety as an article to The RPG Site.

Thanks for the history posts!!  I've really enjoyed them to say the least.!!