QuoteD&D 3.x is simply not the same game as AD&D.

Which is my whole fucking point.
It is like OD&D, especially in the incarnation of the RC.
All the complaints about how D&D 3.x "changed" the game are ridiculous. It was brought back to where it came from.
Buy, download, read, recognize.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe implicit suggestion is that anything "good" in D20 or what makes it popular was really just "stolen" out of other, supposedly better games.

  Don Quixote I presume?

  Nobody has said anything of the kind.  Not on here and not in that article by "Big" Ron Edwards (and I'm going to keep calling him that until it catches on god damn it!).

  I think the problem we're encountering here is that you and your little german friend are seemingly clinging to the idea that D&D develloped in a creative vacuum and that any outside influence is some kind of impurity.

  Every RPG game draws from the other RPGs that a designer has read and the forums he visits and the books he reads.  The RPG world is a small one and there are definite trends, in fact, it's almost collegiate at times the way ideas spread.  This is true of all games and yet whenever a game comes out you weigh it according to what's in it and if it's good then it's good.

  It in no way lessens something for it to have been inspired by something else.  Aristotle is no less of a philosopher for having been Plato's student, Irreversible is no less of a film for having been influenced by Passolini's Salo and D&D 3.x is no less of a game because its designers were inspired by and reacted to what had come before.

  At the moment the two of you are sounding like some weird form of RPG ethnic purists refusing to accept, in the face of overwhelming supporting evidence, that D&D 3.x was influenced by games other than the RC.

  I don't even know how it would be theoretically possible for that to happen unless the D&D 3.x designers had never heard of let alone played an RPG until they were visited in their monastery by Ryan Dancey holding a copy of the RC.

  Clearly you're reacting to the idea that D&D is irrelevant hackneyed shit but the rational response is not to espouse some equally deluded theory of creative exceptionalism.

Quote from: ImperatorI have to love this. British irony at its best.

Actually, Settembrini, you keep forgetting droog's quote: J. Tweet designed 3e. He says that he's influenced by RQ, and AM. Of course, you or the Pundit may know better than him what has influenced him.

Quite the contrary, I choose to take his and Monte Cook's words for it when they explicitly stated that earlier editions of D&D were the main influence for D&D.

RPGPundit

Quote from: droogAre you not an educated man? Do we look down upon philosophers for being influenced by earlier philosophers? Aren't you being just a teensy bit sensitive?

How interesting then that the people who are all the most desperate to try to over-emphasize non-D&D influences on 3.x are all people who have also publically made mention of their hatred for D&D...

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHow interesting then that the people who are all the most desperate to try to over-emphasize non-D&D influences on 3.x are all people who have also publically made mention of their hatred for D&D...

The ad hominem? Come, now!

I'm presuming you don't mean me, because I don't remember getting drunk and telling you I hate D&D.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalDon Quixote I presume?

  Nobody has said anything of the kind.  Not on here and not in that article by "Big" Ron Edwards (and I'm going to keep calling him that until it catches on god damn it!).

  I think the problem we're encountering here is that you and your little german friend are seemingly clinging to the idea that D&D develloped in a creative vacuum and that any outside influence is some kind of impurity.

  Every RPG game draws from the other RPGs that a designer has read and the forums he visits and the books he reads.  The RPG world is a small one and there are definite trends, in fact, it's almost collegiate at times the way ideas spread.  This is true of all games and yet whenever a game comes out you weigh it according to what's in it and if it's good then it's good.

  It in no way lessens something for it to have been inspired by something else.  Aristotle is no less of a philosopher for having been Plato's student, Irreversible is no less of a film for having been influenced by Passolini's Salo and D&D 3.x is no less of a game because its designers were inspired by and reacted to what had come before.

  At the moment the two of you are sounding like some weird form of RPG ethnic purists refusing to accept, in the face of overwhelming supporting evidence, that D&D 3.x was influenced by games other than the RC.

  I don't even know how it would be theoretically possible for that to happen unless the D&D 3.x designers had never heard of let alone played an RPG until they were visited in their monastery by Ryan Dancey holding a copy of the RC.

  Clearly you're reacting to the idea that D&D is irrelevant hackneyed shit but the rational response is not to espouse some equally deluded theory of creative exceptionalism.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that D&D 3.x was influenced by its authors experiences in writing and working on other games. That's just blatantly fucking obvious, as obvious as the fact that D&D is the most successful RPG of all time.

What I'm arguing is with people who ridiculously want to claim that any game other than D&D was the MAIN influence on 3.x.

RPGPundit

Quote from: droogI'm presuming you don't mean me, because I don't remember getting drunk and telling you I hate D&D.

Oh come on, it's perfectly obvious just from your avatar.

How interesting then that the people who are all the most desperate to over-emphasize D&D influences on 3.x are all people who have publically made mention of their fondness for used fishing waders, feltching and the music of Beyonce.

Dude... you REALLY don't want to start second guessing what other people's motivations are for the positions they hold.  Firstly because you're also wide open to second guessing yourself and secondly because it looks like you're avoiding the point.

Well, just for the record, I don't think I've said D&D 3e is directly influenced by RQ or TFT or whatever. I did mean to suggest in some of my comments upthread that RC may have been influenced by one or more of those, but since I don't know RC, it was pure speculation based on the descriptions in this thread of RC features that weren't in either white box D&D or AD&D 1e.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat I'm arguing is with people who ridiculously want to claim that any game other than D&D was the MAIN influence on 3.x.

  Was that an earthquake I heard? because it sounds to me like someone just shifted their ground  The old Pundit shuffle...

  How exactly would one even begin to determine what a game's main influences are.  Is it a majority?  51% or just a greater percentage than the other games? like say 33.7% to the RC and 32.4% to Runequest?

  What does that even mean?

Quote from: NicephorusOh come on, it's perfectly obvious just from your avatar.

We hatessss it! We hatessss it forever, my precioussss! Nasssty little classss and level sssyssstem with itsss sssly, sssneaking wayssss!

QuoteWhat does that even mean?

Stop your sophism now. Either you wanna discuss the ancestry of certain specific rules or you think it is pointless (which is a valid line of thought). Leave the thread then, please as it is about those pointless things.

Nobody ever claimed that Designers are free from outside influence. That would be unrealistic and moronic. Go back to my posts, I never said anything like it.

I only say: RC has heckuvalot more in common with 3.5 than AD&D. And it is the easiest way to assume that

D&D was influenced by D&D.

in the case of RC it's down to specific tables instead of general concepts.

Quote from: SettembriniStop your sophism now

  Don't take that tone with me young man or I'll come round there and give you the spanking you so clearly deserve and yearn for.

  I have no idea what it means for one game to be the "main" influence on another and I don't even know how you'd go about calculating it.  Do you add up all the ideas and see where they come from with the winner getting the title or do you just pull the answer out of your arse?  because that's the way it's looking at the moment.

  If you don't mind admitting that D&D 3.x was influenced by Ars Mag then why would you take such an issue with Balbinus pointing it out?  I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that D&D 3.x was more influenced by RQ/Champions/Ars Mag than any other game, merely that the game was clearly influenced by them.

  Now if you're willing to admit that D&D 3.x was clearly influenced by Runequest, Champions and Ars Magica then please admit it and we can all go back to what we were doing before you all dragged us to crazy-town.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe implicit suggestion is that anything "good" in D20 or what makes it popular was really just "stolen" out of other, supposedly better games.

Its the ultimate pathetically defiant act of stubborn unwillingness to admit that D&D is a good game and is liked on its own merits.

RPGPundit

The suggestion is not 'implicit' pundit; you have inferred it, and illegitimately to boot. No one here has at all suggested that anything good or popular in d20 was stolen from other games, better or otherwise. All that people have done is suggest sources of specific features of later iterations of D&D that differ from BD&D/AD&D. The only D&D 'bashing' in this thread is perfectly reasonable comments about the hodge-podge that was Gygax's AD&D.

Just chill out and actually read what people are saying, instead of lashing out with your tried and tested swine-baiting fer goodness sake.

QuoteI don't think anyone in this thread has argued that D&D 3.x was more influenced by RQ/Champions/Ars Mag than any other game, merely that the game was clearly influenced by them.

I see no clear influence. Only a theoretical one, that is undisputed.

@Spanking: You sir, are blathering on general principles and too sophisticated to talk actual rules, and at the same time not leaving the thread. This is dysfunctional communication. Either those things don't matter,because it's all academic, or they do. Show me your so called clear influnece. Or shut up.