I was watching this video the other day, and it seems like a pretty interesting topic to discuss.

It seems to me that some games have game mechanics that are better adapted to the setting and style of play that the author is trying to achieve.

Duration: 11min



What is your opinion?

My opinion is that I generally use bespoke systems for games I run (existing; ex. WEG Star Wars; or orginal; my Ruins & Realms system for fantasy).

So, yes, choice of system is important. I'd never use something like D&D as the foundation of an outer space mecha campaign... it just doesn't have the right foundation or building blocks.

I WOULD use Mekton or Jovian Chronicles for that setting though because there were purpose built for mecha-based campaigns (and JC for an outer space based one specifically).

Quote from: Cathal on April 06, 2023, 03:13:48 PM
I was watching this video the other day, and it seems like a pretty interesting topic to discuss.

It seems to me that some games have game mechanics that are better adapted to the setting and style of play that the author is trying to achieve.

What is your opinion?

I have always said that.  Sure, you can use the D20 setting for a setting, or Savage Worlds for a setting, but if it is not created specifically to work with the setting, you are not getting the best result.

*Edit* Video was way too long winded and he repeated himself but I agree.

The purpose of a generic system is so that you do the flavor how ever you want, and then you don't need to learn a new system.  The purpose of a specific system is that the flavor is embedded into the game to some degree, so that people pick it up almost by osmosis.  Naturally, it helps to have some specifics even in a generic system and some generic even in a specific system.  I don't want to be so constrained by a system that I can't also do some of the things "near it" that you would expect to do, but I also don't want the equivalent of the frequent board game problem where it's merely color and theme tacked onto a system that has no real relation to the thing supposedly modeled in the game.  Does playing Star Wars Monopoly really invoke either?  Not to me.

I find it considerably easier to get to a good game in actual play when the system and the setting reinforce each other, even if that means that we have the cost of learning a new system up front.  Also, that cost is a little misleading, because when you use the same generic system repeatedly for different settings, it can sometimes be difficult to get the players to unlearn ideas from the previous game.

All of the above ignores that some people are apparently running mostly on tropes and themes all the time.  I can see how for such a group that a generic system is excellent for their purposes.  It gets out of the way, and they'd plow over any particular mechanics that got into the way of their goal anyway.  For me, that's too much like Star Wars Monopoly.   

My first thought watching the video is I hope to one day be touched liked that Mork Borg book. My second thought was, what is he using all of those sharpies for, especially the magnum?

And then my next thought was I disagree. I think your world and setting determines which and how often you interact with rules.

Over too many years to mention, I have largely ignored boat/water mechanics. And most of you have too. Until you decide to play in a partial or full nautical setting.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 07, 2023, 08:40:56 AM
My first thought watching the video is I hope to one day be touched liked that Mork Borg book. My second thought was, what is he using all of those sharpies for, especially the magnum?

And then my next thought was I disagree. I think your world and setting determines which and how often you interact with rules.

Over too many years to mention, I have largely ignored boat/water mechanics. And most of you have too. Until you decide to play in a partial or full nautical setting.

I have done settings with a generic system (Savage Worlds Adventure Edition) and I have played games where the system was tailor made for the game.  The tailor made system always seemed to work better for me than the generic system although generic systems do work.

To Each his own.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 08:47:39 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on April 07, 2023, 08:40:56 AM
My first thought watching the video is I hope to one day be touched liked that Mork Borg book. My second thought was, what is he using all of those sharpies for, especially the magnum?

And then my next thought was I disagree. I think your world and setting determines which and how often you interact with rules.

Over too many years to mention, I have largely ignored boat/water mechanics. And most of you have too. Until you decide to play in a partial or full nautical setting.

I have done settings with a generic system (Savage Worlds Adventure Edition) and I have played games where the system was tailor made for the game.  The tailor made system always seemed to work better for me than the generic system although generic systems do work.

To Each his own.

Can you provide an example of a game where the system was not tailor made for the game? Seems to me all games have systems made for those games.

What I am saying is that regardless of system selected, the setting determines how and when you interact with rules. Just because there are aerial combat rules in the RC does not mean I will run a cities in the clouds campaign.

So yes, rules (or the lack of) matter but only because of my setting/game world. It is a nuance.

Quote from: FingerRod on April 07, 2023, 08:59:32 AM
Can you provide an example of a game where the system was not tailor made for the game? Seems to me all games have systems made for those games.

What I am saying is that regardless of system selected, the setting determines how and when you interact with rules. Just because there are aerial combat rules in the RC does not mean I will run a cities in the clouds campaign.

So yes, rules (or the lack of) matter but only because of my setting/game world. It is a nuance.

It matters more in some things than others.  Say I have a particular setting in mind.  It has a modest but notable piece of nautical combat expected.  I also have particular ideas about how magic will work, its scope, its cost, etc.  Whether I run the game in some D&D variant, Runequest variant, or GURPS 3E or 4E will have an effect on the nautical combat, but unless I have something distinct in mind in that area, I can probably work with any of them.  It's highly unlikely that all of those system are about the same net effect on magic, even if we assume that I'll need to tweak the magic a bit no matter which one I pick.  Also likely that if those tweaks go very far, I'd be better off  expanding my list of systems to consider.

Other considerations are related to complexity (outside of any desire to simply play a more or less complex system for its own sake).  If you want a ton of customization options with mechanical meaning and a tightly knit party that is self-sufficient in a relatively small number of characters, you need some complexity in character creation, and a certain strain of it for that matter.  (Overly detailed could take you right out of the "self-sufficient" thing.)  OTOH, if you want to have players managing a lot of retainers and even sometimes allies, that puts a ceiling on your complexity.

But more than that, I think with a good setting/system match, the sum is greater than its parts.  Every decision you make about the setting doesn't send you barrelling towards one system or another, but every decision does close off some avenues indirectly.  If you only care about a few things in the setting that way, then you still have a lot of options open for system.  If you have a lot of things in mind for the setting, their interactions are likely to narrow the good system options pretty darn quick.

The only system I have ever played that was "tailor made" for a specific setting that I thought was truly great was the old WED Star Wars d6, and that's because the system itself was a solid system that could be adapted for anything else (and it was). But I have never felt that a system needed to be tailor made for a setting to truly handle that style of play or that it being tailor made gave me a leg up for playing it or whatever. And I have never come out of playing a setting-specific system thinking "Holy shit, this game just saved me a ton of time tailor making all this stuff for a specific setting, rather than just using a solid generic engine as its base!"

The only thing that a system needs to play a setting is specific rules to handle stuff that happens in that setting, which can almost always be done with a generic system. A skill roll is a skill roll. Task resolution exists in every game, and most of what's involved in a RPG system is covered by task resolution. You don't need a tailor made system for that--maybe a tailor made skill list, but a skill list is not a system, just extra stuff you add on top of it. And setting-specific, fiddly stuff, like a "Corruption/Sanity" system for magic use and things of that nature can be added modularly to any existing system, even if the original engine lacks them, which is how you end up with the OSR and the d20 boom of games that came before it.

I have often heard the claim that "System Matters", but I have never seen specific examples of it mattering. And I do think that it "matters", just in the complete opposite way that people mean when they make that claim. I think that "System Matters" in the sense that you need a solid game engine that covers the stuff you need to handle during play, which can be done by any generic system, or adapted if it doesn't do it already (like the OSR and other d20 games do). But in the sense that "system has to be setting-specific", my take is that "System DOES'T Matter". Only rules that emulate stuff do. And rules that emulate stuff can be found or adapted to any universal system. That is the only way I think "System (truly) Matters".

Well, the "System Matters" claim has a misleading label, because it's not "The game system you pick" matters, but rather that the "System" is what you run at the table.  That is, "System" is game system + house rules + rulings + unwritten rules of the group + yada, yada, yada.  Which is undeniably true, because it's a tautology. 

Leaving that, and getting back to rules mattering, an example that should be easy is the feel of how characters die.  Now, some, maybe many, people don't care about it.  Dead is dead, whether your D&D character lost his 5 hit points to an orc axe or your Hero System character made a bad decision about not dodging or whatever.  And feel is partially a setting concern, but not exclusively so.  The easiest way to see this is to run a D&D module with a generic system.  They'll be some overlap of feel, because not only is the setting the same, it is even the same adventure.  The players may make similar decisions, and those decisions may play out much the same way.  It will still feel different in some ways.

That old crack about, "You can use Hero System for any game, as long as you don't mind it playing like Hero" is true.  It's also true of GURPS.  I bet its true of Savage Worlds.  What people miss in that observation is that this isn't necessarily a plus or minus.  If you like that feel enough, it's a huge plus! 

Others have a different take.  I have had players, I kid you not, tell me explicitly that they like AC in D&D-like games and don't like it in other games.  Not some random observation or vague supposition, but after having played several systems, and realized this about themselves.  All things being equal, they would rather have armor as damage reduction, with parrying or dodging or whatever built into a skill/combat system. Yet, if you play a D&D module with all that, it doesn't feel like D&D anymore, which they also enjoy. 

What I've found off-putting about a lot of recent games (like L5R 5e and both editions of TOR) is how they create detailed systems to enforce a very particular play style favored by the designer, with the end result being that it's much board gamey than actual roleplaying.  Rather ironic how many of these story games create proprietary dice then create tons of mechanics to justify their inclusion so much that rather than roleplay scenarios, you just make a bunch of dice rolls and adjust your actions to those predetermined outcomes.  This kind of stuff has just solidified my position as a grognard and driven me further back into rules-light retroclones where there's far more freedom built into the game.

Quote from: Persimmon on April 07, 2023, 10:22:25 AM
What I've found off-putting about a lot of recent games (like L5R 5e and both editions of TOR) is how they create detailed systems to enforce a very particular play style favored by the designer, with the end result being that it's much board gamey than actual roleplaying.  Rather ironic how many of these story games create proprietary dice then create tons of mechanics to justify their inclusion so much that rather than roleplay scenarios, you just make a bunch of dice rolls and adjust your actions to those predetermined outcomes.  This kind of stuff has just solidified my position as a grognard and driven me further back into rules-light retroclones where there's far more freedom built into the game.

"System Matters" as an excuse to use a gimmick is certainly a thing.  I would argue that the travel system in TOR (and as ported to the D&D 5E version) isn't only a gimmick, but it is a very poorly designed system, trying to use abstraction to handle what the GM ought to do with adventure/setting details. It's like putting training wheels on a motor cycle.  They work for young child on a small bicycle, so why not put them on something an adult will drive fast on the interstate? 

Of course, that's another example of why the rules matter, only in the negative sense.  When the training wheels fly off at the bend, the GM is not going  to be prepared for that ditch coming up.  

The prime example I have for "system matters" is every accursed attempt to make the d20 system work with the mecha (and particularly the "real robot" variety) genre.

I'm not talking "uses a d20 to resolve checks" part, I mean the full level-based, six stats, hit points (without hit locations), combat based on a grid of 5' squares, full attacks take your move action, scaling base attack bonus, static defense score, etc.

And every last effort I ever saw kept trying to torture that into covering mecha genre conventions and it doesn't work because most kept trying to use the d20 conventions like "Speed 600' (30 squares)" (but can only move 5' if it does more than one attack in six seconds) or "AC 27 (+0 dex, +21 natural, -4 size), 400 hp" and similar where they expect multiple 40' tall robots that run 60mph while gunning down another mook mecha the same size every second to be using the same human-average scores and scaling as D&D.

Even Palladium, as awful as it's mechanics can be, handles mecha combat better than the d20 system.

Then you look at purpose-built systems like Mekton or Jovian Chronicles/Heavy Gear or Mechwarrior Destiny (a reskin of FASA's Legionnaire RPG) and the difference is night and day. I like Mekton's detail for more "super robot" style recreations (or settings where the PC's mecha are notably better than their opponents), while I find JC/HG's mechanics better for the fast skirmish style combat where the pilot is the real edge using mass produced mecha that you see in Macross or the more realistic Gundam series. MWD does a pretty good job at emulating the experience of the protagonists in the many Battletech novels much better than the wargame rules do (or any of the previous MW rpgs that used the wargame rules to resolve Mech combat for that matter).

And that's the key for me... the setting assumptions just within the real robots category of the "mecha genre" are different enough that trying to squeeze them into a single system is probably suboptimal, let alone trying to use a system tortured out of a human-scaled fantasy ttrpg whose third edition was itself tortured out of a medieval-themed wargame.

Sure, you can use D&D 3.5e to run a mecha-based campaign, but it's going to feel like D&D Buffalo Billing a mecha skin... which is fine if you like D&D, but leaves me wondering why you aren't just playing D&D instead of pretending its a mecha game where the GM is saying "it puts the myomer in the basket or it gets the inferno rounds again."

One odd thing about D&D, particularly 3e, is that the system has a bunch of built-in assumptions that are not genre emulation or attempting to simulate reality, but rather just it's own internal game conceits.

AC is one of them. HP = 1HD+CON Modifier per level is another. Both of these are just game abstractions that are mostly there to facilitate a particular style of play and character progression, rather than the way damage works in reality or any genre. AC is just a way to handle armor protection without having to subtract damage from every successful hit. And HD+CON Mod provides a consistent HP increase that's easy to recall as you go up in level, but ends up escalating pretty quick to numbers way beyond the population average as characters advance to higher levels.

I suspect it's because of this that attempting to emulate Mechs using 3e falls apart. Mechs aren't ment to exist in a world where characters rack up HP/Vitality to obscene amounts or armor is heavily abstracted. But you could probably still use a lot of the rest of 3e's mechanics, like action resolution or some type of level progression if you swapped out AC for damage reduction and HP = 1HD+CON Mod for higher starting HP and minimal HP per level. Which probably why Palladium handles them better.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 08:47:39 AM
I have done settings with a generic system (Savage Worlds Adventure Edition) and I have played games where the system was tailor made for the game.  The tailor made system always seemed to work better for me than the generic system although generic systems do work.

To Each his own.

There's also the midway point: the highly modular generic system that allows you to plug in optional rules that emulate the genre or setting elements you want your specific game to have. Some systems do this better than other or with less hassle than others (which was my approach with the Quick & Dirty RPG System.)