Quote from: trechriron;863197You make my point even further. I'm the lemming? Look, I appreciate your naivete, and how the world should be filled with idealists who never lose their temper or become aggrieved with the people they serve. It's a nice place. I wander there sometimes myself for a respite from the harsh truths of reality.

Read the Wizard of Oz. So you found out the wizard was a human. Boo hoo.

I'm defending Monty Cook because I believe he is a good guy and I think his ranting about fans is an acceptable venting mechanism for professionals. Also, industry folks don't rant about ALL fans/gamers. Just the ones who get so riled up about a game that they are on the threshold of committing violence, or go on crusades to ruin the target of their wrath.

It's OK Honey Boo Boo, Monty wasn't angry with you.

I guess the difference is I expect the true professional to bitch when the kids aren't present.

I never mentioned what he said I said "ranting about gaming and gamers and the biz"  You seem to have forgotten that part in your rush to attack.  If the rant was about Stinky Steve and Fawning Phil, who cares I agree with him.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;862990None of that scream 'self important' to me.

The guy shouldn't have to appologize for using his own name to help sell books. It isn't like RPG designers make millions, they have to work hard to make it a full time thing like he's done.

No shit.  This, and leaving a job, is what makes someone "self-important" and "arrogant?"  Jesus Christ.

Taller peg, that's what it is.

Quote from: Ravenswing;863204No shit.  This, and leaving a job, is what makes someone "self-important" and "arrogant?"  Jesus Christ.

Taller peg, that's what it is.

There were rumours that he wasn't happy working under a former employee, who didn't care about 'his' vision of D&D.  Accurate?  True?  I dunno.  But unlike most people who left WoTC, he didn't get fired, he quit.  And then went to Paizo.  Why?  What was wrong at WoTC that he had to walk out?

Too many questions, not enough answers that put him in a good light.  You wanna hero worship him?  Fine.  My?  I wonder why.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;863208There were rumours that he wasn't happy working under a former employee, who didn't care about 'his' vision of D&D.  Accurate?  True?  I dunno.  But unlike most people who left WoTC, he didn't get fired, he quit.  And then went to Paizo.  Why?  What was wrong at WoTC that he had to walk out?

Too many questions, not enough answers that put him in a good light.  You wanna hero worship him?  Fine.  My?  I wonder why.

No one is saying you have to worship the guy but this is really not much to go on for anything. "There were rumors" and "he didn't get fired" really doesn't tell anyone much of anything. Someone leaving a job, even if it were a product of them leaving because they were unhappy for whatever reason, doesn't explain the hatred that people seem to have for him.

So maybe he's the George Lucas of modern RPG-design? Great on ideas. Spotty to shit-poor on implementation?

But okay guy to hang around! Loves gaming like George loves movies.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863151Math that doesn't add up, producing weak or overpowered features.
Overpowered mechanics (like the executioner effect granting an easy instant death effect to everyone).
Missing class features.
And the biggie for me, prestige classes, feats, spells, and items that sound cool but turn out to be redundant with existing mechanics. It was bad enough that you started to feel, "This book would work better as a flavor guide giving you advice on how to make existing game elements sound cooler without actually changing how they work."

I can see where all that would be a problem.

Quote from: Nexus;863227I can see where all that would be a problem.

I have his d20 version of the World of Darkness. It's a very nice book and I'm happy to own it, but I once saw it summed up thusly:

"You want to play an Awakened? Sucks to be you."
"You want to play a Demon? Sucks to be you."
"You want to play a Werewolf? Sucks to be you."
"You want to play a Vampire? You should have fun."
"You want to play a Mage? Congratulations, you win the game."

And I'd have to say that assessment is pretty spot-on. I haven't read all of MC's stuff, but balance in that game was pretty much nonexistent. Thankfully his work with the Cypher System seems much better from my (admittedly limited) experience with it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;863208There were rumours that he wasn't happy working under a former employee, who didn't care about 'his' vision of D&D.  Accurate?  True?  I dunno.  But unlike most people who left WoTC, he didn't get fired, he quit.  And then went to Paizo.  Why?  What was wrong at WoTC that he had to walk out?

Too many questions, not enough answers that put him in a good light.  You wanna hero worship him?  Fine.  My?  I wonder why.

Hero worship?  Errr ... has anything I posted on this forum given anyone the impression I give a tinker's damn for anything d20/D&D in shape?  Never bought anything the guy wrote or had a hand in writing.  Never met him, know next to nothing about him, wouldn't recognize him if he stumbled across my doorstep five minutes from now.

As far as what was wrong at WotC that he had to walk out ... beats the hell out of me.  Have you ever voluntarily left a job?  Would you be enthused at strangers characterizing you as "self-important" and "arrogant" for doing so?

Because even if WotC was such an amazing place to work as all of that -- and who's claiming so? -- there are a whole mess of reasons why someone leaves a cushy job.  Better money.  Getting away from a personality conflict.  More freedom to do your own thing.  The spouse wants you to work fewer or different hours.  A better commute.  A more rural/urban town.  Less pressure.  The culture at the new place is more to your liking.  The direction at your current place isn't.  The incident you don't feel like talking about.  Relocation.  Just needed a change.

Man, in your shoes, I'd worry a lot less about whether other people are "hero-worshipping" this guy and more about why I thought him quitting a job without informing me why was so sinister.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;863208There were rumours that he wasn't happy working under a former employee, who didn't care about 'his' vision of D&D.  Accurate?  True?  I dunno.  But unlike most people who left WoTC, he didn't get fired, he quit.  And then went to Paizo.  Why?  What was wrong at WoTC that he had to walk out?

Too many questions, not enough answers that put him in a good light.  You wanna hero worship him?  Fine.  My?  I wonder why.

HE QUIT A JOB?! WHAT A HORRIBLE PERSON!

Jesus, Christopher. That has to be one of the dumbest things you've ever said. And the competition there is stiff.

(Also, fact check: Cook's time at Paizo came 5+ years after he left WotC the first time and several years before he rejoined WotC and then left again. What he actually did both times he left WotC was create a new company.)

Quote from: camazotz;862897Do you regularly have issues with people who change their minds?

(Sorry, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just feel like you should put some details in on why a person deciding to make a career change who then decides to make a different choice is problematic. I've done this at least three times in my own career in the last 15 years, for example; it's just how business rolls.)

not at all, I was just surprised by it was all. and as I said the only thing he has done that would cause me to have an issue with him.

I've liked most of the books that he produced.  I do think he focuses a bit much on the d20, there are plenty of other very nice dice out there, and he could write books that use those, but whatever.

hell I didn't even mind too much when he destroyed the town I was living in when the Innconu touched down in McWoD (Mitchell, SD) (frankly it probably made the place better, Mitchell is an armpit of a city)

I still think Ghostwalk is one of the single coolest settings I've ever seen, and when I got annoyed and purged most of my 3rd ed collection it was about the only book I kept.

No, I take that back, I do have one issue and that was that he caved to TBP about the Native American mini-setting in The Strange.  the SJW would have us believe that all Native Americans are one big happy family, but historically speaking they killed each other a hell of a lot more then the white man ever did.

Quote from: Brand55;863228I have his d20 version of the World of Darkness. It's a very nice book and I'm happy to own it, but I once saw it summed up thusly:

"You want to play an Awakened? Sucks to be you."
"You want to play a Demon? Sucks to be you."
"You want to play a Werewolf? Sucks to be you."
"You want to play a Vampire? You should have fun."
"You want to play a Mage? Congratulations, you win the game."

And I'd have to say that assessment is pretty spot-on. I haven't read all of MC's stuff, but balance in that game was pretty much nonexistent. Thankfully his work with the Cypher System seems much better from my (admittedly limited) experience with it.

Cook's version of the WoD would be the only way I would actually play the setting. I love that book. Nothing WW has ever put out has even vaguely interested me. I remember reading the original Werewolf with some excitement. I love lycanthropes. After a cover-to-cover read I metaphorically shook the book to see if any rules would fall out. It was nothing but fluff as far as I was concerned. A WW Fan-boi got all upset when I told him I had sold it to a friend. His response, "But Werewolf is the crunchiest book in the setting!" Cook's book at least had rules.

Quote from: remial;863284No, I take that back, I do have one issue and that was that he caved to TBP about the Native American mini-setting in The Strange.  the SJW would have us believe that all Native Americans are one big happy family, but historically speaking they killed each other a hell of a lot more then the white man ever did.

Well if you include diseases I'm pretty sure european explorers killed more Native Americans than intra tribe warfare etc.  At least if you believe the estimates on Gun Germs And Steel Europeans knocked out 95-98% of the Native Americans just shaking hands.

Quote from: Tetsubo;863290Cook's version of the WoD would be the only way I would actually play the setting. I love that book. Nothing WW has ever put out has even vaguely interested me. I remember reading the original Werewolf with some excitement. I love lycanthropes. After a cover-to-cover read I metaphorically shook the book to see if any rules would fall out. It was nothing but fluff as far as I was concerned. A WW Fan-boi got all upset when I told him I had sold it to a friend. His response, "But Werewolf is the crunchiest book in the setting!" Cook's book at least had rules.

Oh, I agree that, setting-wise, MCWoD beats the pants off any of the WW versions. It's coherent enough that new players can easily digest it and also gives the different character types an actual reason to be hanging out together. If I ever ran it, though, I'd have to introduce some house rules, probably starting with eliminating the Mage ability to replenish components practically at-will through spells.

My favorite example of irrational Monte Cook hate: Shortly after 5e was announced, while he was still onboard the design team, he made some offhand remark in a blog post about "passive perception". I'm not exactly sure what the issue was (I think it's that he didn't properly acknowledge the pioneering role of 4e or something), but people were still losing their shit over it years later!

You can probably still provoke a fist shaking tirade over at TBP by mentioning it.:rolleyes:

Quote from: remial;863284No, I take that back, I do have one issue and that was that he caved to TBP about the Native American mini-setting in The Strange.  the SJW would have us believe that all Native Americans are one big happy family, but historically speaking they killed each other a hell of a lot more then the white man ever did.

I disliked the concession more because it seemed compromise what the game was about. The Thunder Plains was not an accurate representation of the regions native American cultures any more than Goodland is an accurate depiction of the 1950s. Recursions are born from fiction, imagination and belief so widely believed and accepted stereotypes are going to shape them as much, if not more than the "truth". The Thunder Plains and its replacement both fit into the structure of The Strange and illustrate that part of it but no, can't have people being exposed to ideas that even hint at being uncomfortable

*looks down* How the Hell did I get on this soapbox. sorry.