Quote from: SeanchaiHere's my problem (and my basic point): It also comes with a more subjective understanding of the game.

Seanchai

There's "good" subjective and there's "bad" subjective.

Bad subjective - writing a review on a game written by a friend.

Good subjective - writing a review on a game you've actually played.

Quote from: obrynHow is this subjective experience minimized by not playtesting?

Playtesting or actual play?

When you don't rely on actual play to write a review, the subjective experience is minimized because you're relying more on objective information.

Seanchai

Quote from: CaudexThe problem with the very discussion of "emergent properties" is, I think, that if you dismiss 'very unlikely' as not good enough to qualify, then there is indeed no such thing. I can't think of an example of emergent qualities in anything at all where it isn't conceivably possible for someone to deduce what will happen ahead of time. Look at, for example, the development of carbon-fibre monocoque design in racing cars. The pioneers in its use didn't know how good it was going to turn out to be - they were expecting it to have a lower torsional strength than existing chassis design (for reasons to boring to go into here) and were pleasantly surprised. But in theory someone could have predicted it.

Which is why I'm pretty dismissive of the idea that there's some magical, indefinable something which will make everything better.

Seanchai

Quote from: J ArcaneI'm not an idiot or a child, I can usually tell when I'm being snowjobbed, years of RPGnet experience will give you that skill, so just give me whatever the fuck opinion you've got, and I'll decide for myself whether it's worth a squit of piss.

Not being an idiot or child, I have a general sense of how things will work out subjectively for my group - based on the objective elements contained within the game as written. Thus I don't give a damn what you liked or didn't, if your elf character should have been better seduce barmaids or if you got bad rolls dodging fireballs and now think the dodging rolls are wonky. If you tell me about the written rules, I can decide for myself or decide if I want to purchase the game and then decide for myself.

Seanchai

Quote from: Tyberious FunkThere's "good" subjective and there's "bad" subjective.

How does this help us? If the reviewer doesn't state all manner of things upfront, how do you determine whether it's one or the other?

Seanchai

L5R is my favorite example - the stupid ass clans irritate the heck out of me in principle, but in play everyone can remember who they are and it all works rather well.

Quote from: SeanchaiPlaytesting or actual play?

When you don't rely on actual play to write a review, the subjective experience is minimized because you're relying more on objective information.

Seanchai

You think?

I find that most reviewers come with a whole set of prejudices, opinions, and experiences.

-O

What obryn said.

A review based on actual play is as subjective as a review based on reading. The only difference is that there are things in actual play that are not evident if you only read the game.

This is the reason why I like to know the reviewer, if I have read a lot of his reviews and posts, then I know his bias.

Quote from: obrynYou think?

I find that most reviewers come with a whole set of prejudices, opinions, and experiences.

Yep, reading is one of the most subjective experiences out there.

Just look at all the rules-lawyering that goes on over the Bible. If ever a book needed a third edition...

You wanna know what the real problem with RPG reviews is right now?

That pretty much every major source of them online is completely unedited.

Any random fuckwit can just go and post up a review.  Even if he's the guy who wrote it.  Or some dork who's never even actualyl played an RPG in his life.  I actually read a review that started out with the reviewer stating that he'd never actually played any games and only bought them to read.

They're badly written, badly edited, painfully dull, totally uninformative, and just generally a massive waste of bandwidth.  

There's no editorial process whatsoever.  

You wanna find a bugaboo to go after, go after the idiot who decided "Hey, lets just let any random fuckstick post his halfassed review on the front page!" was a good way to run a website.