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Why the hate for narrative/story elements in a RPG?

Started by rgrove0172, August 04, 2017, 01:57:06 PM

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Nexus

Quote from: Krimson;981393How are you supposed to stigmatize Badwrongfun Gamers if you don't have a convenient box to put them in?

There is a tendency to lump people under the broad umbrella "storygamer" if your preferences differ from the board standard. I guess that's part of human nature but the hostility is oddly intense. Maybe it goes the other way as well. But it doesn't seem to be knee jerk and intense on the boards I've been compared to the rpgsite and even absent entirely.

Its not just  comparing Apples to Eggplants, there's people that seem pissed off that the other exists or that "too many" people like it, that apples aren't eggplants (or vice versa), or that want convince others that not only does their preferred food taste good but that the other is poisonous.
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

ArrozConLeche

Quote from: fearsomepirate;981084That article was some of the most pretentious twaddle I've ever read.

The dude now is mad that his thread was closed on story-games for being flamebait, but he doesn't have the cojones to come out and say that.

http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/21241/my-worries-about-the-indie-community

On retrospect, I shouldn't have said it was rightly closed.

Bren

Quote from: Voros;981414I am obviously more hardcore than you. :D
As are, judging by their comments, a lot of people in this thread. I can live with that. :)

Quote from: TrippyHippy;981425I'd also add that The Haunting, arguably the most played Call of Cthulhu of all, almost always results in some character death.
Yes that is a deadly in the short run scenario. Its one of the few scenarios I've run for multiple groups. Although no one ever went insane, two out of three times a PC died.

Quote from: Crimhthan;981459Exactly that IMO is what a "story game" is.
Your definition is almost uniquely yours which is going to cause confusion when you try to communicate with other people.
Currently running: Runequest in Glorantha + Call of Cthulhu   Currently playing: D&D 5E + RQ
My Blog: For Honor...and Intrigue
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fearsomepirate

The funny thing about all this, and I say this as someone who did not even know "Story Games" were a thing until a couple months ago, and who only had a vague notion that the "OSR" was anything more than "old versions of D&D tarted up with better-organized manuals," is that these pretentious blowhards are making it sound like "the industry" has left D&D behind when in fact D&D and Pathfinder together comprise the lion's share of this teeny, tiny, $35m industry in terms of sales. Add in the various 3rd-party supplements, toss in the similar-but-not-quite D&D games like 13th Age, and you've got all these story games fighting over something like $5m in revenue, maybe less.
Every time I think the Forgotten Realms can\'t be a dumber setting, I get proven to be an unimaginative idiot.

WillInNewHaven

Quote from: fearsomepirate;981475The funny thing about all this, and I say this as someone who did not even know "Story Games" were a thing until a couple months ago, and who only had a vague notion that the "OSR" was anything more than "old versions of D&D tarted up with better-organized manuals," is that these pretentious blowhards are making it sound like "the industry" has left D&D behind when in fact D&D and Pathfinder together comprise the lion's share of this teeny, tiny, $35m industry in terms of sales. Add in the various 3rd-party supplements, toss in the similar-but-not-quite D&D games like 13th Age, and you've got all these story games fighting over something like $5m in revenue, maybe less.

To the extent that they are fighting over revenue, they are trying to get a bigger share of the industry. That is the motivation for discounting the trad games. Of course, they can argue that the art form has left traditional games behind and no one can really refute them because that is a matter of definitions and movable goal-posts.

Before I retired, I was in marketing and our discussions would sometimes touch on making the pie bigger but usually we talked about getting a bigger slice, even though we were the industry leader. Now I am marketing a crunchy trad RPG and expect to become a dozenairre soon.

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https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/218159/Glory-Road-Roleplay-Core-Rules

ArrozConLeche

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;981477To the extent that they are fighting over revenue, they are trying to get a bigger share of the industry. That is the motivation for discounting the trad games. Of course, they can argue that the art form has left traditional games behind and no one can really refute them because that is a matter of definitions and movable goal-posts.

Before I retired, I was in marketing and our discussions would sometimes touch on making the pie bigger but usually we talked about getting a bigger slice, even though we were the industry leader. Now I am marketing a crunchy trad RPG and expect to become a dozenairre soon.

----------------------------
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/218159/Glory-Road-Roleplay-Core-Rules

I don't believe that it's about revenue but it's a popularity contest for sure. I know that it burns some of them that people just aren't interested in their form of playing. There are others who think that new design will get the mainstream again like D&D did way back and they may see the lack of "evolution" as an obstacle to adoption.

Nexus

Quote from: Justin Alexander;981434Your misunderstanding is even more understandable in this thread because rgrove0172 claimed in the first post that "narrative elements", story games, and railroading were all the same thing. This is because rgrove0172 and confused and confusing individual. ("Narrative elements", as far as I can tell, isn't even a widely recognized term in RPG discussions and I can only really guess at what rgrove0172 might have been talking about.)

Not to put words in rgrove0172's mouth, I think he means story elements and concepts like organizing games into scenes, chapters, episodes and the like, extensive (in some opinions narration and description) and making GMing choices driven by what would make the story (as in game O events) more interesting, emotional, exciting, entertaining, fun ror in genre rather than in setting logic and the ideal of virtual world simulation. Somethings that are called Illusionism for some included. I could be way off base, of course or there may be more.  
[/QUOTE]

QuoteI'm not really seeing it. What early storytelling games do you see being influenced by CoC's sanity mechanics, exactly?

I'd see them more as precursor to mechanics like GURPS Fright Checks, Hero System's PRE attacks, personally. But some Story games do track a characters mental/emotional/moral deterioration AIU, but so do some Traditional games.
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

Nexus

Quote from: Bren;981474Your definition is almost uniquely yours which is going to cause confusion when you try to communicate with other people.

In fairness, this isn't an unusual issue.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;981475The funny thing about all this, and I say this as someone who did not even know "Story Games" were a thing until a couple months ago, and who only had a vague notion that the "OSR" was anything more than "old versions of D&D tarted up with better-organized manuals," is that these pretentious blowhards are making it sound like "the industry" has left D&D behind when in fact D&D and Pathfinder together comprise the lion's share of this teeny, tiny, $35m industry in terms of sales. Add in the various 3rd-party supplements, toss in the similar-but-not-quite D&D games like 13th Age, and you've got all these story games fighting over something like $5m in revenue, maybe less.

That's another thing that puzzles me about hostility. Some Storygame folks were assholes (and I guess some still are). Trad games won, are winning and continue to win. Sure there is some adoption of "narrative" elements in some traditional games. IME, some of the things allot of people seem to hate here were part of the GMing advice when I started. But Fiasco and Slasher Flick aren't any threat to D and D and barring some weird occurrence probably never will me.
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn't even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

Willie the Duck

Quote from: Itachi;981360Lol may I suggest we stop using the term "story-games"? Because at this point it's useless.

Well, telling people not to do something works so well :p, but you did say suggest, not demand, so go ahead. As to useless, it appears to be less than useless, since we have people with genuine contradictory beliefs about what is in story games.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;981475The funny thing about all this, and I say this as someone who did not even know "Story Games" were a thing until a couple months ago, and who only had a vague notion that the "OSR" was anything more than "old versions of D&D tarted up with better-organized manuals," is that these pretentious blowhards are making it sound like "the industry" has left D&D behind when in fact D&D and Pathfinder together comprise the lion's share of this teeny, tiny, $35m industry in terms of sales. Add in the various 3rd-party supplements, toss in the similar-but-not-quite D&D games like 13th Age, and you've got all these story games fighting over something like $5m in revenue, maybe less.

In the same boat, here. Other than 'that thing a lot of people here hate,' I don't know what the Forge is (I mean technically, I know it is a website popular around 2000 or so), I don't know who these major players are. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what these games actually are (both in terms of what games qualify, but what is in them that makes them story games).

Biscuitician

The irony.

The Dr Who initiative system is one of the most constricting narrative/story design elements in recent years (whether you like the idea or not) and the self proclaimed arch nemesis of 'The Swine' claims authorship of it.

ffilz

Quote from: Willie the Duck;981486In the same boat, here. Other than 'that thing a lot of people here hate,' I don't know what the Forge is (I mean technically, I know it is a website popular around 2000 or so), I don't know who these major players are. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what these games actually are (both in terms of what games qualify, but what is in them that makes them story games).

I happen to be in the same camp as at least some other "story gamers" (taking the meaning for story gamers as those who find the discussions in storygames.com relevant to their gaming) who include D&D as a story game...

In fact, some of the techniques in some story games are actually reaching back across the era of World of Darkness/Storyteller into the era of sandbox D&D, finding techniques that worked, and describing them differently.

On the other hand Ron Edwards did a lot of damage with his brain damage crusade (though which was actually aimed at the type of railroady "the GM has a story to tell gosh darn it" play that the folks here who are anti-story game are against).

On another hand, I don't play many of the "story games" or "forge" games... But I do hope to play Burning Wheel more in the future and would even play Dogs in the Vinyard again.

Frank

arminius

Inclusion of D&D as a story game strikes me as either a distinction without a difference (what RPG isn't a story game, then?), or parochial interpretation (D&D can be played as a story-game if you apply certain conventions, like grafting the GMing section from DitV or Sorcerer/Sorcerer & Sword, structuring the game in scenes, improv GMing with no presumption of pre-existing facts in the world, and players given unquestioned input to scenes and scenarios as sort-of co-GMs). Or it's a motte-and-baily argument that only gets trotted out as a defense against characterizing story-games, then shelved for all other purposes.

Black Vulmea

Quote from: Itachi;981360Lol may I suggest we stop using the term "story-games"? Because at this point it's useless.
What 'we' are you talking about? The writers who describe their own games as story games? The forum that calls itself story-games.com? Are these people deluded or mistaken about their own products and proclivities?
"Of course five generic Kobolds in a plain room is going to be dull. Making it potentially not dull is kinda the GM\'s job." - #Ladybird, theRPGsite

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ACS

Black Vulmea

#313
Quote from: Arminius;981494Inclusion of D&D as a story game strikes me as either a distinction without a difference (what RPG isn't a story game, then?) . . .
That's the point, I think.

Quote from: Arminius;981494. . . structuring the game in scenes . . .
Hell, Doug-Fucking-Niles did that in the 1e AD&D DSG.

Quote from: Arminius;981494Or it's a motte-and-baily argument that only gets trotted out as a defense against characterizing story-games, then shelved for all other purposes.
[Landa] That's a bingo! [/Landa]
"Of course five generic Kobolds in a plain room is going to be dull. Making it potentially not dull is kinda the GM\'s job." - #Ladybird, theRPGsite

Really Bad Eggs - swashbuckling roleplaying games blog  | Promise City - Boot Hill campaign blog

ACS

jhkim

I agree that the term "story games" is often used inconsistently. It sometimes is used inclusively of all RPGs whether traditional or non-traditional. This is used internally - such as during discussions of D&D and other traditional RPGs on the story-games.com forum, which happen regularly.

More often, it is used to refer to only non-traditional games ranging from Apocalypse World to Fiasco and more.

There is no conspiracy in this. It's just that different people use the term differently. I think that the latter usage is more common, and would prefer people standardize on that. But it's hard to police people saying that.