Quote from: blakkieAD&D though? Especially 2e....ARRRRGG! I don't have so much a problem with basic premise of the playstyle as I do with a lot of the excution.  But then that was yesterday's product built using the knowledge of the times.  I think C&C, inspite of it's warts, is ultimately a better AD&D than AD&D. Tight, and narrow boundries of character definitions and relatively "loose" rules.

You understand I wasn't running AD&D, I was running an extensively house-ruled game founded in AD&D. For all it's mess - and it was a mess - AD&D was exceedingly easy to house-rule. House-ruling 3.x is like prying open a clam with yout fingernails.

-mice

It's not my favorite system out there, but I can still play it and have fun--and I'm GMing it now, and my players (many of them brand-new to the hobby) definitely enjoy it.  Not my first system of choice, but well far from being my last.

Quote from: flyingmiceYou understand I wasn't running AD&D, I was running an extensively house-ruled game founded in AD&D. For all it's mess - and it was a mess - AD&D was exceedingly easy to house-rule. House-ruling 3.x is like prying open a clam with yout fingernails.

I've never found it to be so, at least not for the sorts of house rules I've found meaningful. Indeed, the fact that it builds from a consistent baseline makes it easy to build on the existing structure of the game.

Some house rules you need to be a bit trickier about and I see what you are getting at. My injury house rule explicitly avoids revolving around to hit numbers/crits, because that would mean re-jiggering the weapons tables.

Fortunately, since I did play AD&D, which almost requires house ruling, I developed the survival skill of being good at house ruling, so I managed.

I love D&D so obviously the question isn't aimed at me.

Here's what I suspect:

If you hate D&D, yet somehow find the need to talk about it constantly, I totally suspect it's because your'e trying to make cool points and puff yourself up, probably because you suck as a human being. There isn't many other conclusions I can come to. Likewise with the "well, D&D is a mark of someone with social problems.." smear. I always kinda nod my head and go "oh yeah, I get it. You suck as a human being so you have to sorta project the blame.. totally understandable.."

Plenty of people don't like/outright dislike/totally hate D&D, but they also don't have the need to belabor the point.

:emot-flowers:

I have to agree with the other poster that I don't see that there is much hate.  D&D/D20 is even fairly popular with the indie crowd (who more commonly bash on White Wolf).  Levi Kornelsen's Perfect20 variant won the the Indie RPG Award prize for Best Free Game this year, for example, and there's a lot of buzz over Iron Heroes and Spycraft.  

Personally, I've given it as fair a shot as I can (played in two campaigns and GMed several D20 or D20-variant one-shots), and I conclude I don't like it.  Is this the sort of hate we're talking about and should I thus explain my reasons, or are we talking about something else?

Quote from: jhkimPersonally, I've given it as fair a shot as I can (played in two campaigns and GMed several D20 or D20-variant one-shots), and I conclude I don't like it.  Is this the sort of hate we're talking about and should I thus explain my reasons, or are we talking about something else?

That hardly sounds like hate, more like reasoned personal dislike.

I think they're talking about the kind of guys who come into d20 threads expressly to knock it, as some kind of personal crusade.

Yeah - I haven't seen the unreasoning hatred I used to see a couple of years ago for quite some time, and not at all here.

-mice

Quote from: flyingmiceYeah - I haven't seen the unreasoning hatred I used to see a couple of years ago for quite some time, and not at all here.

I used to see it all the time on RPGnet (anyone remember Kamikaze?) But eventually, even RPGnet of all places seemed to grow weary of it and it seemed to happen less and less often, though there is still the occasional grandstanding anti-D&D threadcrapper.

Ah... It's up to me to save the day then with vitriol and bile and... well... Hate?

Woe unto thee, D&D lovers, for Spike hath spake much on the topic of thine favorite game, and it is verily like a vast sewage pit and stinketh much...


Naw.

Stuff I don't like. Levels, Classes... in revolving order but together just....grrr..

Hit point pools of DOOM!  Armor that makes you harder to hit rather than harder to hurt.

The never ending array of badly designed, badly conceived Feats (or prestige classes, or...)

Optimal 'Builds' overshadowing 'character concepts'.  Lethal housecats and weapons that merely tickle (see again levels and Hit points....)

Fifty shelves of D&D books.  Not being able to find players for other games due to the D&D love. Not being able to find an excellent setting that should have decent mechanics, because the designers decided to go with the easy out (Iron Kingdoms, I'm looking at YOU!) Excellent settings that had excellent mechanics that died because some jackass thought trying to release an OGL version was a good idea (Fading Suns, I'm looking at YOU.... Heavy Gear et al... still dying out but...yeah you get it)

Players coming to me with some broken ass Prestige Class (or even new 'core class'... battlemage I'm looking at YOU) that has absolutely no place in the setting I'm running, and whining like I kicked their dog when I say No.  That's right, some players can NOT accept that the PHB and whatever prepublished setting guide we might be using are the ONLY authorized books to build characters from. (XXX I'm looking at... aw fuck it, you get it already)

Unlike most posters here and elsewhere I DO like 3E a LOT better than I liked AD&D.  I find it neither harder or easier to houserule.  I like the basics of the system, I've found a handful of variants that are fun and easy to play.  Combat can be slow, but it can also be brutally fast if you don't try to get bogged down in rules lawyering.  I just don't personally like too many of the 'sacred cows'. Okay, don't generally like sacred cows (hmm... hamburger...)... to like the game.  

Spike has spoken.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI used to see it all the time on RPGnet (anyone remember Kamikaze?) But eventually, even RPGnet of all places seemed to grow weary of it and it seemed to happen less and less often, though there is still the occasional grandstanding anti-D&D threadcrapper.

Yeah, the "hat of d02" has simmered down, for the most part. Now, it mostly manifests in smug snarkiness from true gaming "auteurs." It's mostly a general attitude of condescencion than outright hostility.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonYeah, the "hat of d02" has simmered down, for the most part. Now, it mostly manifests in smug snarkiness from true gaming "auteurs." It's mostly a general attitude of condescencion than outright hostility.

I'd agree with this.  Because we know that truly enlightened gamers would never play anythng so sophomoric, silly, and munchkin as D&D--they'd rather do something with artistic merit, like wield a Daiklave.

At its core the d20 system is simple and good. It's when you add all the crap that you get problems.

Feats for example. Nine times out of ten you're dealing with stuff that aint that hard to learn. You applied the rules regarding two weapon fighting strictly the typical person in a d20 world wouldn't be able to use a knife and fork to eat meat with.

And combat is a malconceived mess. I say stuff static initiative and the crap they call attacks of opportunity. I've been in fights, video games don't even come close to accurately modeling them. It's bad Gamist, and that I hate.

Put me in charge of D&D 4e and you'd see a much better RPG.

Quote from: mythusmage... Put me in charge of D&D 4e and you'd see a much better RPG.

Well, you have my vote.  

I don't know if I hate D&D, but I certainly don't love it anymore...  Well, heck:

A "Dear D&D" letter:

Oh baby, I'm so sorry. It's not you, really. It's me. We're just not compatible.

I know you changed a lot over these past few decades, and I know you've tried your hardest to make me like you, but you just haven't changed the right things. You did a great job, Baby, when you switched to Third Edition, and I thought the changes you made would help our relationship. But Baby, it just wasn't enough. I love that you accepted a unified mechanic, even if you didn't feel the need to apply it to turning undead, but you still kept ablative hit points, and armor that makes you harder to hit, and classes.

And Baby, oh Baby, why couldn't you change fire-and-forget spellcasting? The sorcerer was a good try at fixing the magic system, but then you had to punish it by making it less flexible compared to your true love, the wizard.

I know you can change more. I know you've got modular parts, and new magic systems like psionics and Incarnum, but it just ain't enough. Fire-and-forget magic will always be your favorite, and it shows in how you treated those half-assed magic systems.

Baby, I'm so sorry. I know you have alternate rules for almost everything, and I loved that Unearthed Arcana gift you gave me a few years ago, but when I play a game, I shouldn't have to rewrite the whole game system.

There's just too much to change, Baby. And all you do is keep churning out more supplements, with more rules and feats and prestige classes. It just ain't enough.

No, baby. changing to 3.6 won't do it either, nor will changing to 4th Edition, not unless you make bigger changes than you're willing to make.

I need a simpler and faster system. I need something that doesn't require so many books. I need a system that handles multiple genres without feeling like medieval fantasy carelessly tossed into a different environment. And I need to play a game where all medieval fantasy doesn't feel the same. Sure, you got your pretty Faerun and Eberron books, but they're still nothing new, baby.

Yeah. I still love you. I can't forget all those years we spent together, and all those inside jokes like the Umber Hulk and the Beholder and AC and THAC0. And we had a lot of great times together, Baby. We really did. I swear to God.

But really, I want a game where competent characters can still be threatened by a bunch of zombies. I want a game where experienced characters aren't loaded down with tons and tons of magic items. Baby, I need a game where combat doesn't take three hours.

Please don't cry, Baby. I'll come back every now and then to visit. I just can't stay with you any more.

Quote from: AkrasiaWell, you have my vote.  

Hey, if AoO go away, I could get behind that.