First thing first, my kudos to everyone for apologizing. As mattormeg said, is really impressive. I have to say that specially of you, Abyssal Maw. I had a very different opinion of you, and I was mistaken. My apologies, too.

Answering to the Pundit: Please, stop the cult thing. I'm not impressed by the wisdom of anyone, and I think that is true for most people, indie gamers or not. Ron Edwards says some interesting things, some boring things, and some stupid things, just as any other guy.

The Gygax thing doesn't come from thin air. You can refer to Alarums & Excursions, for example, where all that flame was treated. And frankly, I wouldn't have cared about what Gygax said, the same way I don't care about R. Edwards saying stupid shit about brain damage.

The most damaging statement that I find in your discourse is this:

QuoteAnd if you wonder why traditional roleplayers despise the Forge players, THIS IS IT. Its because you fuckers think that we don't roleplay. You think that you are the ones who've invented the concept, and that we are just a gang of clods who couldn't roleplay to save our life, or that when we say "roleplay" we really mean "dungeon crawling" or "combat", as if that's all we know what to do. You talk to us like we were retarded (and, in fact, have literally said we're brain damaged).

¿See? There's no 'we' and 'you'. I play both indie games and mainstream games. Am I a 'we', a 'you' or what? Man, this is not a war. Try as hard as you can, there is no need to make such a separation and try to create a confrontation that does not exist.

What does it matter if some dude says on Internet that your gaming is wrong? Fuck him! Why are people like you trying to make this become a rift between gamers? Most guys around there can happily play both mainstream and indie games and be very happy with them, they're not enemy soldiers.

There is no a conspiracy of indie gamers trying to go to your house and burn your D&D books. They are not trying to pass a Congress bill to forbid all the games but the indie ones. On the other hand, there is no a chance that any mainstream game becomes the only game available there.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI mean, I guess it's the same as saying "most of the games coming out of the forge are chiefly enjoyed by race-baiters, date rape advocates and people who have failed at life. BUT DONT TAKE IT PERSONALLY."

Both statements have a bit of truth to them.

Hey, guys?  This is how rumors get started.  Let's be careful, huh?

There is no seed of truth to the link between the Forge and either race-baiting or date-rape.  But yeah, if you keep saying it over and over then people will be willing to accept that "Hey, everyone knows that!  And they kill puppies in satanic rituals when they finish a game!" and then anyone who wants to talk about Forge things will have to wade through clearing that crap first, which is just silly.

Even if you dislike everything Forge-influenced folks stand for, there's fair ways to argue against what they actually say.  I'm sure you'd rather do that than be party to spreading baseless slander.

Quote from: TonyLBHey, guys?  This is how rumors get started.  Let's be careful, huh?

There is no seed of truth to the link between the Forge and either race-baiting or date-rape.  But yeah, if you keep saying it over and over then people will be willing to accept that "Hey, everyone knows that!  And they kill puppies in satanic rituals when they finish a game!" and then anyone who wants to talk about Forge things will have to wade through clearing that crap first, which is just silly.

Even if you dislike everything Forge-influenced folks stand for, there's fair ways to argue against what they actually say.  I'm sure you'd rather do that than be party to spreading baseless slander.

Let us discuss baseless slander, then.

Certainly, the idea that you actually advocate date-rape is baseless slander, holding equal validity with the idea that D&D players are socially maladjusted cat-piss men.

See? Baseless slander. Lack of respect all around. Why not? After all, anyone who wants to talk about our side of the hobby already has to wade through the same crap you guys generate constantly. Why shouldn't it be reciprocative? I can personally think of several reason it shouldn't be this way, but I want to hear what you think.

And I disagree- there are several forgies who are dedicated race-baiters who obsess on that exact thing. While the 'date rape advocate' was just being silly, I actually believe that second part was true.



We can discuss that too if you like, but it kinda deserves it's own topic.

Quotethere is no need to make such a separation and try to create a confrontation that does not exist.

My experiences say otherwise.

Quote from: Abyssal MawCertainly, the idea that you actually advocate date-rape is baseless slander, holding equal validity with the idea that D&D players are socially maladjusted cat-piss men.

Uh ... no.  The idea that there is even one Forge advocate who also advocates date-rape has no basis in fact.  The idea that there are maladjusted cat-piss men who play D&D is well established.  Andy met them.  Nobody's claiming that they dominate, simply that they exist ... which they do.  Really not the same thing, y'know?

Quote from: Abyssal MawAfter all, anyone who wants to talk about our side of the hobby already has to wade through the same crap you guys generate constantly. Why shouldn't it be reciprocative?

That's just argument through repetition.  "Forge people pepper arguments with baseless slander all the time ... because I said so!"  Saying it doesn't make it so.  Hearing other people say it, and believing them, doesn't make it so.  But saying it often enough will tend to muddy any possible discussion.  I'd like to think you don't want that.

Quote from: Abyssal MawAnd I disagree- there are several forgies who are dedicated race-baiters who obsess on that exact thing. While the 'date rape advocate' was just being silly, I actually believe that second part was true.

Again, argument through repetition.  You saying that the Forge has race-baiters doesn't make it true.  It's not true.  I've been on the Forge actively for quite some time, and I don't even know what race people there are, unless I've met them in person.  Sometimes not even then.

What is a "race-baiter", anyway? Is it another word for racist or something?

Oh, nevermind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_baiter

And to second, I don't recall ever seeing "Race Baiting" by ANYONE in an RPG context, let alone Forgie/d20/other.  Where are people saying these things? Does anyone have a link? I'm curious, as maybe I remember a post or two like that on RPGNet's TANGENCY forum (but that's a Whole Other barrel of monkeys), but not really in talking about RPGs?

-Andy

@Andy: I have the fweeling the race-bate and date-rape thing is referencing to some discussion neither of us two has had on his radar screen. I hope someone can enlighten us.

I'm referring to the "Drow elves are really people in blackface" thing, but to a lesser degree other issues. Nothing to do with either Andy or Tony, but still on the radar.

"In political terms, someone seen as a race baiter views all social, civil, legal, and criminal matters in terms of continuing racial oppression of their respective group and places all discussion of those subjects in those terms.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_baiter"

QuoteUh ... no. The idea that there is even one Forge advocate who also advocates date-rape has no basis in fact. The idea that there are maladjusted cat-piss men who play D&D is well established.

Exactly, and I totally read online the other day where there was some guy named Tony Lowenbasch from the Forge advocating date rape. Just as well established.

Oh god, I hope this hits google.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw"In political terms, someone seen as a race baiter views all social, civil, legal, and criminal matters in terms of continuing racial oppression of their respective group and places all discussion of those subjects in those terms.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_baiter"

Also known as Amado.

RPGPundit

QuoteAlso known as Amado.

Pundit! Bad dawg, no insiders without explanation!
Amado is an infamous RPG.Netter, who drew the race card oftentimes, he seems to be a halflatino, and not black as he was implying. If you really care, search Pundit`s Blog for Amado.

Quote from: ImperatorAnswering to the Pundit: Please, stop the cult thing. I'm not impressed by the wisdom of anyone, and I think that is true for most people, indie gamers or not. Ron Edwards says some interesting things, some boring things, and some stupid things, just as any other guy.

I'll gladly "stop the cult thing" the day that the Forge members stop acting like they're in a cult.  Like when Ron Edwards said gamers were brain damaged, and you had half a dozen forgies tripping over themselves in a desperate rush to be the first to cry out "YES YES!! I AM brain damaged!! You have seen the truth about my despicable self yet again o brilliant one!! Your grace is immeasurable!!"

Fuck that. Want to not be called cult members? Stop mistaking Edward's piss for liquid gold.

Quote¿See? There's no 'we' and 'you'. I play both indie games and mainstream games. Am I a 'we', a 'you' or what? Man, this is not a war. Try as hard as you can, there is no need to make such a separation and try to create a confrontation that does not exist.

That's where you're wrong. As long as they're trying to turn my hobby into their story-hobby, it is a war. The forgeites love to play innocent about it, claim persecution even, as they filter into every message board and slowly force all conversation to accept forgespeak-as-truth, and then to accept forge-theories as truth.  They like to claim, as you are here, that traditional gamers are totally unreasonable oafs attacking them for no reason, with one side of their mouth even as the other side cackles about how traditional gamers are inferior brain-damaged child-abused gamers who need to be re-educated for their own good. So fuck that.
This is a war. And theRPGsite is the place where I intend to stand firmly against the influence of Forge-theory and forge-games.  This is one moderator you won't be able to subvert or bribe the way you did the ones of other sites. This is one place the traditional gamer will be able to go to talk about games without being forced to talk in Forgese.

QuoteWhat does it matter if some dude says on Internet that your gaming is wrong? Fuck him! Why are people like you trying to make this become a rift between gamers?

I didn't make that. Ron Edwards made that; like Mark Rein·fucking·Hagen did before him, the moment he said that his type of games were smarter and more artistic and better than other people's games.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SettembriniPundit! Bad dawg, no insiders without explanation!
Amado is an infamous RPG.Netter, who drew the race card oftentimes, he seems to be a halflatino, and not black as he was implying. If you really care, search Pundit`s Blog for Amado.

To be really fair, I don't think he ever claimed to be black; he did claim to be mexican and to be horribly oppressed for his race, even though the guy looks as white as I do, and definitely not Aztec.

Also, to be fair, it wasn't "oftentimes" that he played the race card, it was ALL the time. There wasn't a thread around that he couldn't turn into an issue about racism, usually accusing all gamers/whitepeople/etc of being racists.

RPGPundit

You will not find Ron furthering this or saying this.

But there are a lot of Forge-Swine who do and act so on the internet.

The war is there, but Ron is not the King-Rat Pundit would love to have. So much easier with a single hateable enemy, than a group of disconnected wankers, who aren't even important in any way...

Basically Pundit, you are pulling a George W.:

You can't single out the terrrorists, so you attack Iraq and get Saddam to pull through the streets.

Well Ron is totally not like a gaming Saddam, not in action nor in private, hope the comparison is taken with the tongue in cheek needed.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm referring to the "Drow elves are really people in blackface" thing, but to a lesser degree other issues. Nothing to do with either Andy or Tony, but still on the radar.

Uh ... what?  First off, if you're talking about the post-GenCon discussion, that thread was about actual people in, y'know, actual blackface.  There were pictures and everything.

But maybe that's not what you're talking about.  Maybe it's a more general question of "Hey, is it cool to have the dark elves be inherently, racially, evil?"  That strikes me as a legitimate discussion of race, not race-baiting.  Race-baiting is, like, "Hey man!  You're firing me!  This is because I'm black, isn't it?  You can't stand to see the black man havin' some power!"

I mean, seriously ... I'm white as a lily, and I find the concept that "White elves are inherently good, and dark elves are inherently evil," uncomfortable enough to be worthy of comment.

Quote from: Abyssal MawExactly, and I totally read online the other day where there was some guy named Tony Lowenbasch from the Forge advocating date rape. Just as well established.

Oh god, I hope this hits google.

Ohhhh ... you're not even keeping up a pretense of being interested in honest discussion any more.  You're out to smear people by any means necessary, even when you know perfectly well that it's a pack of self-serving, vitriolic lies.

Gotcha.

Quote from: TonyLB... even when you know perfectly well that it's a pack of self-serving, vitriolic lies.

Gotcha.

Well, yes. Exactly. I've answered your self-serving vitriolic lies with ones that are absolutely and equally true and verifiable. It's reciprocation.

This is the discourse you wanted, right?

Ok, so back to drow elves:

First of all: they come from norse mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svartalfar

Second of all, drow leves have nothing to do with black people.

Where you see "black face" I see someone wearing bodypaint who wanted to be in a costume contest. You brought race in. YOU put it there. Then you condemned the person for an imagined racial wrong. Then you got angry on the behalf of an entire group you don't even belong to.




There's a term for that.. imagining a racial issue where none exists. What was it again...?