Quote from: King of Old SchoolThis isn't an artifact of RPGs.  It's an artifact of modern culture.

KoOS

yea, I figured someone might say that, which is why I added the "Cold Case" mention.

I mean, you don't even get that, that kind of blatant emotional heartstring-pulling bullshit... you know what I'm talking about, right? How at the end of every episode of "Cold Case"; you get a song-montage where the various characters are shown as they are now, and as they were when young, and then you see the dead/murdered person's ghost show up and nod smiling at the fact that justice has been finally done.

I mean, that's cheap as all hell, but you can't even get that kind of whistfulness in most rpgs.

When you can transmit less sophisticated emotional content than the WB, that's pretty fucking sad.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundityea, I figured someone might say that, which is why I added the "Cold Case" mention.

I mean, you don't even get that, that kind of blatant emotional heartstring-pulling bullshit... you know what I'm talking about, right? How at the end of every episode of "Cold Case"; you get a song-montage where the various characters are shown as they are now, and as they were when young, and then you see the dead/murdered person's ghost show up and nod smiling at the fact that justice has been finally done.

I mean, that's cheap as all hell, but you can't even get that kind of whistfulness in most rpgs.

I think that's because the kind of resolutions that "adventure gaming" promotes don't easily lend towards any kind of emotionalism.  And my experience leads me to believe that it would have to come from the "Swine" you deride in any case.

I'll give you an example.  In the first game played by my current group (D&D in Greyhawk), the DM ran a very interesting mystery-oriented scenario inspired by Shakespearean drama, in which the PCs were hired to investigate and resolve the kidnapping of a noble's daughter.  It was brilliant, and we managed to rescue the damsel (despite the rather messy death of one of the PCs, rent in half by a dire ape).  It was interesting and complex and lent itself to real engagement with the characters.

Afterwards, the most forceful personality in the group complained that the game contained too much thinking and not enough killing, so now all of our games revolve around exploring dungeons (not literal dungeons, of course), killing monsters, and accumulating loot.  The only emotions that feature are those which derive from killing lots of monsters and, occasionally, from being killed in creatively graphic ways.  It's fun but a touch monotonous.

If this is the kind of gaming you endorse as objectively correct, you shouldn't be shocked when the result is a dearth of emotion in RPGs.

Also, I think there's a huge difference between audiences who passively consume emotional media content, and expecting those people to generate their own overtly emotional content in a group environment.

KoOS

Quote from: SosthenesApart from that, I blame Drizzt's monologues. Worst piece of angsty game fiction ever.

I'll see your Drizzt and raise you one Raistlin.

Quote from: Mystery ManI'll see your Drizzt and raise you one Raistlin.

Crom laughs at your Raistlin!

He might've been a pretty angsty character before Drizzt's time, but if seniority would count, Frodo would be the Queen of the Damned.
Raistlin is a really bad metaphor for growing up. He was an okay kid, then sudden events (*winkwink*) made some strange changes to his body, but he gained some "power" from them. But in the end he got the girl, blinded her and almost became a god. Typical growing-up story.

Drizzt got _several_ pages at the start of each friggin' chapter ranting constantly about his role in society, how he can't get along with his family. He basically just got the hots for his sister and/or father/mentor and couldn't cope with that. But why did the _reader_ have to suffer for this?

Then again, I never read any WoD fiction. Did they beat Anne Rice in the search for the supreme whine cellar?

Quote from: SosthenesCrom laughs at your Raistlin!

He might've been a pretty angsty character before Drizzt's time, but if seniority would count, Frodo would be the Queen of the Damned.
Raistlin is a really bad metaphor for growing up. He was an okay kid, then sudden events (*winkwink*) made some strange changes to his body, but he gained some "power" from them. But in the end he got the girl, blinded her and almost became a god. Typical growing-up story.

Two words: Elminster's novels. :seppuku:

Well, Greenwood's novels are certainly bad fiction, but Elminster is about as angsty as Vlad Taltos. The guy is the mightiest mage in the world and boinks goddesses, ferchrissakes!

Every time someone tries to convince me that I really oughta take up reading fantasy, someone else starts talking about what utter shit the genre supports.

Thanks, someone else!  You've spared me again!

We're not talking about fantasy, we're talking about game fiction. Which is utter digestive-end-product no matter what genre. If I remember correctly, there were Battletech novels able to destroy braincells several parsecs away. Sturgeon's law aptly describes novels set in pre-existing worlds, whether they're based on games, movies or TV shows...

Gaming had those Henry V. moments:

GDW

Twilight:2000 had all sorts of stark mature emotions, which where believable.
Survival Margin for TNE has several great speeches by leaders and important
people, in the mindset of Agincourt or the Ghettysburg Adress.

Quote from: SosthenesWe're not talking about fantasy, we're talking about game fiction. Which is utter digestive-end-product no matter what genre. If I remember correctly, there were Battletech novels able to destroy braincells several parsecs away. Sturgeon's law aptly describes novels set in pre-existing worlds, whether they're based on games, movies or TV shows...

  Those books are the literary equivalent of Avril Lavign or Coldplay.  In the pop music world you have people who are interested in having some music to listen to but are completely unwilling to exercise any critical muscles or devote any thought to what they listen to so they buy whatever they happen to hear the most often on the radio... usually from the supermarket.

  Similarly some people want to read sci-fi or fantasy but are utterly unwilling to make any effort to get to know the genres and who is good and who isn't so they buy a familiar brand.

   Obviously, as a gateway to bigger and better things these books have their part to play but there's really no excuse, as an adult, to buy that kind of shit.  Especially when a magazine or website full of informative reviews is so easy to get hold of.

   Game tie-in novels are like a co-dependent relationship.  The reader gets absolute shit but shit that he can recognise and buy without having to even think, meanwhile the writer gets to fantasise about being a real writer.

Quote from: fonkaygarryEvery time someone tries to convince me that I really oughta take up reading fantasy, someone else starts talking about what utter shit the genre supports.

Thanks, someone else!  You've spared me again!

Read Game of Thrones by George Martin. If you want to read a good fantasy story, that would qualify.

Hey, Punani – if you don't like mere angst, we have much more for you in the indie games camp. Come by and look at our wares some time. We can offer you erotica, romantic comedy, dark comedy, high-fantasy tragedy, violent judgement, the master-slave dialectic, the Faustian bargain, and much much more. Going cheap....

Meh... I wasn't convinced by a Game of Thrones.  I bought it prior to going away last Xmas as part of my attempt to leave my confort zone and try and disprove my running theory that fat fantasy is invariably shit.

I chose a Game of Thrones not because of its popularity within the gaming community but because people like Gary Wolfe had really rated it and said it was all about plotting and politics and intrigue.

What I actually discovered though was about 900 pages of sprawling world building where really not very much happens at all and just when things start getting interesting it turns out to be part of a series... of 7 books.

NO story a human can devise could possibly warrant 6300 pages-worth of text.  No tale is going to be interesting enough to make me want to crawl through that much text in order to find out what happens.

There is some good fantasy kicking around (China Mieville and Terry Pratchett most notably) but fat fantasy can fuck right off... RA Salvatore's books might be shit but at least they're 300 pages and not 6300.  Even the lord of the rings is three books of 300 or so pages.

As a general rule of thumb never read fantasy that's longer than 400 pages.  Once you do it ceases to be about plot and characterisation and starts to be about the self-indulgent wankery that is world-building with the maps and the other words for days of the week and the stupid names with a'postr'rophes in them.

Yep, there's a lot of damn good fantasy fiction out there. Gaming fiction, not so much.

I'm going with the poster who said the angst thing is an artifact of our culture as a whole.

Popular culture idolizes youth, along with all of the impulsivity, ambiguity and plain ol' pissing and moaning that goes along with it.

Anyone who seems to have their shit together and is generally happy - or products that tend to espouse this viewpoint - are generally considered shallow.

The only way anyone can be taken seriously as "deep" is to be "deeply troubled."

I'm an unapologetic adventure gaming enthusiast, myself - I love roleplaying, but I cut the navel-gazing crybaby stuff out a long time ago.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalMeh... I wasn't convinced by a Game of Thrones.  I bought it prior to going away last Xmas as part of my attempt to leave my confort zone and try and disprove my running theory that fat fantasy is invariably shit.

I chose a Game of Thrones not because of its popularity within the gaming community but because people like Gary Wolfe had really rated it and said it was all about plotting and politics and intrigue.

What I actually discovered though was about 900 pages of sprawling world building where really not very much happens at all and just when things start getting interesting it turns out to be part of a series... of 7 books.

NO story a human can devise could possibly warrant 6300 pages-worth of text.  No tale is going to be interesting enough to make me want to crawl through that much text in order to find out what happens.

There is some good fantasy kicking around (China Mieville and Terry Pratchett most notably) but fat fantasy can fuck right off... RA Salvatore's books might be shit but at least they're 300 pages and not 6300.  Even the lord of the rings is three books of 300 or so pages.

As a general rule of thumb never read fantasy that's longer than 400 pages.  Once you do it ceases to be about plot and characterisation and starts to be about the self-indulgent wankery that is world-building with the maps and the other words for days of the week and the stupid names with a'postr'rophes in them.

Read any Robert E. Howard? He's a dead fella, but his work might appeal to you.

Also, I've had a lot of luck with Poul Anderson's fantasy stuff, but he's another one of those who have gone to join the celestial chorus.

Finally, if you stretch your definition of "fantasy" you might enjoy Jeff VanderMeer's work. Particularly if you enjoy China Mieville.