Quote from: Zak S;690752A lot of really great game designers and illustrators who later went on to larger and more lucrative fields started in RPGs, there's no reason that the same couldn't happen with graphic designers.

F'r'example Kirin on Old School Hack did some new and innovative stuff.

Sure, but, ya know, game designing and illustrating is its own reward in a lot of ways. RPGs have never had problems – well, since the mid 80s, let's say – finding dudes who wanna draw dragons no matter how little money they have. People want to draw dragons. People want to design games. People, even designers, don't go laying out 250+ pages of lorem ipsum dolor in their spare time. Layout is work, and analysis, and making changes, and trying to get the client to see the logic in what you are doing – the poorer and less prestigious the client the more they are going to stick their hands into what you are doing and your top-end cutting-edge graphic designers just don't put up with that (at least, when trying to do cutting-edge work; not sure if anybody these days can completely avoid autopilot jobs).

You might get someone who started out playing RPGs, worked in top-end ad agencies or whatever, who then comes back and decides laying out an RPG is an important problem for them to work on, but they still have to get the client to shut up and go along with their groundbreaking design whatever, and then they have to deal with the conservatism of the customer base... I wouldn't hold my breath.

Quote from: Rincewind1;690869Sure you don't need glossy paper, formatting, shiny tokens and all that jazz. You also don't need soft toilet paper, alcohols that don't taste like they are made out of cotton dust to get drunk, or an mp3/mp4 player with enough space to hold a year's production of record company.

My version of good, professional design for an RPG rulebook is the same type of good design that you'd find in the average college textbook or average reference book.  I want it to be easy to read and easy to refer to using easy-to-read fonts in black(ish) type on off-white/whitish paper

Many things that others seem to consider examples of professional layout and design in RPGs that turn me off because they make the book harder to read and/or harder to refer to in play. Some examples:

* page backgrounds: I really do not want to try to read text printed on colored backgrounds, over line art, printed over pictures, etc. It may LOOK very nice when you flip through the book, but it makes actually using the book (that is, reading the text) harder for many people.

* Weird layouts: Standard layouts may be boring but they are proven by long use to be easy to read and follow.

* distracting page borders: A fancy border every once in a while (like for the first page of a chapter) is okay. Busy or distracting borders are seldom okay, and never okay on most pages in the book. A border that isn't distracting and is actually useful (thumbs for each chapter, for example) is fine.  If they aren't actually useful all they do is take up space and if they are busy/distracting, they don't really count as white space either.

Quote from: Benoist;690718"RPGs are meant to be played, and not to primarily serve as coffee table reading material".

Wait why else would anyone buy Pathfinder books :?

Quote from: Bill;690874Not to mention content of the game.

I like art quite a lot, but if the game sucks....

I thought that 4E was a great example of this. The books were very well done and pretty, but the content they held was not up to the standards that most people had developed by then.

I think that RPG books have three, often contradictory purposes.  First, they must attract potential buyers and inspire the reader with the awesomeness of their Big Idea (usually the setting or metaplot, or whatever).  Second, they must teach a prospective player how to play the game before they ever sit down at a table.  Third, they must serve as a reference for reasonably knowledgeable players while they are playing the game.

If board game rules folios and software technical documentation are anything to go by[1] these three purposes require different and arguably irreconcilable design aesthetics.  It's why software tends to have a "user's guide" and a "technical reference" as two completely separate books, and why most boardgames have both a rulebook and a "cheat sheet".[2]

I don't think it's possible to make a single-book RPG design that can do all three, and single-book publishing has been the norm for decades.


[1] These are the only other similar fields I have any familiarity with
[2] To be fair, the cheat sheets are nearly always fan-created

Quote from: jeff37923;690945I thought that 4E was a great example of this. The books were very well done and pretty, but the content they held was not up to the standards that most people had developed by then.

I think the 4e art is very hit or miss myself.

Quote from: daniel_ream;690951I think that RPG books have three, often contradictory purposes.  First, they must attract potential buyers and inspire the reader with the awesomeness of their Big Idea (usually the setting or metaplot, or whatever).  Second, they must teach a prospective player how to play the game before they ever sit down at a table.  Third, they must serve as a reference for reasonably knowledgeable players while they are playing the game.

If board game rules folios and software technical documentation are anything to go by[1] these three purposes require different and arguably irreconcilable design aesthetics.  It's why software tends to have a "user's guide" and a "technical reference" as two completely separate books, and why most boardgames have both a rulebook and a "cheat sheet".[2]

I don't think it's possible to make a single-book RPG design that can do all three, and single-book publishing has been the norm for decades.


[1] These are the only other similar fields I have any familiarity with
[2] To be fair, the cheat sheets are nearly always fan-created

I agree 100 per cent. WotC took a stab a creating a genuine 'technical reference' with the Rules Compendium for Essentials. It's a very well done and effective book. However, a lot of RPG fans go ballistic if they think the company is "forcing" them to buy the same content twice.

Furthermore, when I've questioned the lack of summary sheets for RPGs (or even half-decent GM screens), the response I've gotten back is that they're unnecessary because gamers worth their salt will simply internalize this stuff and keep in in their heads.

So once again, you've got the preferences of the ubergamers at odds with the needs of the new or casual player. Combine that with the ferocious conservatism of a good portion of the RPG player-base, and publishers face an almost irreconcilable dilemma - they need to innovate to achieve their goals, but they will be punished for that innovation. I don't envy them one bit.

Quote from: Benoist;690835Good, because that isn't something I believe at all.

I believe the contrary: I believe the physical presentation, the form, is important. I also believe the physical presentation of a product should serve its destination. In other words, the form should fulfill the function. The function of a role playing game product is to be played.

Well...okay. If that's what you're saying, then that makes sense. If I misunderstood, and got snippy about it...then I apologize.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;690840:rotfl:

"This is not the way of Landru. You are not of The Body!"

I don't fully understand the reference, because I missed that episode. But now I suddenly want to watch some original Star Trek...

Quote from: Black VulmeaYour tastes are as shallow as your understanding.

Tell me, would you put the original Traveller black box back on the shelf?

Sadly, I have not read original Traveller. I've always wanted to pick it up, but it was one of those things that I somehow never got around to. I do like those Traveller covers though...

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;690997Sadly, I have not read original Traveller. I've always wanted to pick it up, but it was one of those things that I somehow never got around to. I do like those Traveller covers though...

Spend no money!

Go to DriveThruRPG and download Starter Traveller ( a free basic version of the original Classic Traveller).

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;690997But now I suddenly want to watch some original Star Trek...

Then this thread hasn't been a total waste!  Hooray!

Quote from: Old Geezer;691039Then this thread hasn't been a total waste!  Hooray!

Ditto. The Landru episode is actually one I particularly like. Watch away!

Quote from: Melan;690820High-end graphic designers who have come up with useful RPG-specific design solutions. If the work they did for RPGs is available to the public, I'm interested in checking them out.

You misread me, I said they haven't appeared yet.

And I totally did. Where is my coffee? :/

Quote from: valis;689975I posted that article.

It is my fault that it wasn't posted back in May when the interview was done.

It was part of a series about "New Wave" OSR, i.e. those people who were A) Not grognards/players of the original edition(s), B) Not people who started blogging about it back in 2008-2010, but were instead: New creatives with no previous exposure to the old games, blogging and creating games in the OSR style. That is: using a DIY aesthetic focused on the actual play of the game.

This term makes no sense. You're just taking "New game designers not in any way related to OSR" and choosing to call it "new wave OSR".  Its a bullshit tactic whose only possible purpose is to dilute the definition of OSR.

And the author of the game in question agrees, in this case.

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