Ian likes the 'toy' aspect of design, messing with stuff, and screwing around with funky subsystems.  Don't confuse that with "doesn't game".  I've played in his campaign, and he's played in mine; he's not a 'Bitter Non-Gamer' or whatever.

Of course no amount of playtesting makes a "good" game because that's entirely subjective.  When designing a game, you have a good idea on the theme and feel of the game.  For example, when I design games, I am very much pro "adjust/remove/add rules that makes the experience funner for your group."  I view rules as guidelines.  I am also very much pro "you make the call" for GMs.

For someone who absolutely needs firm rules in their game with no GM fiat, they will think my game sucks no matter how much I've play tested it.  Or if I design an adventure to be fast, quick, with little GM prep (sort of like a one-shot adventure you can just open up and play), then I have an intention of understanding it will be fairly linear.  If someone doesn't like linear adventures, they will think it sucks, regardless of the context in which it was designed.

There are probably people here now who have played more than Gygax or Arneson did when they started codifying D&D. Personally, I think people write crappy games because they're just bad at writing games. It's not like writing a good game with mass appeal is some easy thing everyone should be able to do.

Quote from: VectorSigma;689822Don't confuse that with "doesn't game".  I've played in his campaign, and he's played in mine; he's not a 'Bitter Non-Gamer' or whatever.

Yes.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;689823Of course no amount of playtesting makes a "good" game because that's entirely subjective.  

Yes.

Quote from: beejazz;689824Personally, I think people write crappy games because they're just bad at writing games.

Yes!

YHBT HAND.

Quote from: Old Geezer;689790If somebody wants to jerk off to math tricks they can.

Somebody who is the real deal in hardcore "math tricks", is probably better off being a mathematician writing original research papers and publishing them in referred math journals.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Black Vulmea;689777*sigh*

Not a fan of Stab City? What was your experience when you played it?

Surely you played it before critiquing the author for writing bad games due to not playing them, right?

Quote from: ggroy;689832Somebody who is the real deal in hardcore "math tricks", is probably better off being a mathematician writing original research papers and publishing them in referred math journals.

:rolleyes:

Foolish Reiner Knizia, raking that fat Lego board games dough.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;689809Easy:

-They will regard the rules as the game.

-All examples will assume that if something CAN be done via the rules then it will always be done to the absurd extreme.

- will express a love for playing rpgs but hate the very idea of a GM running the game instead of a ruleset

- numerous white room ruleswanking theories involving shit that wouldn't come up or be tolerated by other people in an actual social setting.

OP, this why so many games suck, question answered. This is why we can't have nice things ^_^

I don't know about you guys but I'd really like it if people who are writing rulebooks cared about rules. 'cause rules are the part of the game I'm paying them actual money for ;3

I don't know if "regards the rules as the game" means the person is a non-gamer, but they have a very different view of games from me.  In many games, not just RPGs, huge, important areas of the game are not covered in the rules at all.  Two that come instantly to mind are bluffing in poker, and strategy in chess.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;689777*sigh*

Hey VM, I'm Ian, that guy destroying RPGs. I'm pretty new in the industry, so I'm small enough that I like to apply that "personal touch" and reply to comments.

I'd hate to think that my comment about spending more time designing than playing is an indictment of my abilities to make a game. The fact is, it's a lot easier for me to set up probability worksheets and write design theories on my laptop at home every day than it is for me to get my friends over to test things every time I have an idea. Don't think that this means I don't believe in play testing - I actually think play testing is a huge part of designing any game. I also feel that running it for my home group certainly isn't enough - I've had open play tests on G+, and I've run it for some of my friend's RPG groups as well. Heck, my hope is that I'll get feedback from backers of the Kickstarter once I mail out the play test episode, because the further divorced from the play test I am, the better the feedback I'll get.

Do I like mechanics? Heck yeah. The mechanisms and framework of a rule system can, in my experience, drastically change the way a game plays out. Just something as significant as change from GP=XP to XP for defeating monsters has really changed the way people play Dungeons & Dragons, for instance. There is obviously a lot more to games than the numbers and math behind them, but I think I've got a talent for that particular aspect of game design, and it's a fun hobby for me.

If you just don't like Stab City! because it's not the kind of game you play, hey man, that's totally fine. I like ketchup on my eggs, but I'm not going to get mad when someone orders breakfast different. There are all sorts of genres of games, and if I'm assuming correctly that you like old school trad games, then hey, we've got that in common. I just feel like life is too short to get stuck playing the same thing over and over. I've got Mentzer basic on my shelf right next to the box set for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3e, which itself is sitting next to my collection of old Wraith: The Oblivion books. I just happened to write this particular book this particular way, and hopefully people who like this sort of game will like it.

Anyway, I'm sorry for destroying the hobby or jerking off to numbers (is there a name for that fetish?) Maybe once Stab City! comes out, why don't you take a look at it and send me a review? I always enjoy hearing differing opinions on game design, and I love arguing about the correct way to play elfgames.

Quote from: Cheneybeast;689851Hey VM, I'm Ian, that guy destroying RPGs. I'm pretty new in the industry, so I'm small enough that I like to apply that "personal touch" and reply to comments.

I'd hate to think that my comment about spending more time designing than playing is an indictment of my abilities to make a game.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, Black Vulmea is a well known troll. Welcome to theRPGsite and I'd be personally delighted if you'd join in a few of the threads hereabouts, they could use the touch of any man or woman versed in the arcane arts of game design!

Quote from: Mistwell;689833Not a fan of Stab City?

I said absolutely nothing about Stab City.

I commented on an attitude toward game design that I think leads to crap games. Stab City may or may not be one of those games, but whether it is or not is, to me, irrelevant to the larger point, that, in my experience, so-called game designers who are more interested in "cute math tricks" tend to produce boring games.

Quote from: Cheneybeast;689851Hey VM, I'm Ian, that guy destroying RPGs.

I just want you to know that that's where I stopped reading your post.

If you want to climb down from that cross you built, we'll talk.

Quote from: Cheneybeast a.k.a. Ian JohnsonI don't like playing with the people who like simulationist, really immersive games. The kind of people who remind other players that they can't talk because their characters are in different rooms, or are unconscious, that sort of thing. Dude, shut up, it's a stupid game where we are pretending to be elves. Who cares about that stuff? It destroys the harmony of the social experience that is RPGs, and I won't stand for anyone doing things that ruins other peoples fun in my games.

Do you not get the supreme irony of you saying "I won't stand for anyone doing things that ruins other peoples fun" in that passage?

You have just basically insisted that people should be free to ignore basic believability about which characters are able to talk to the others. Do you understand that that could break someone's suspension of disbelief and thus ruin their fun? (Obviously, depending on the exact circumstances - it would have to be obviously in-character chatter when it was obviously impossible for it to happen.)

If you want to insist that the experience be non-immersive, or at least only lightly immersive, and that people have the right to remind each other in all sorts of ways that it's "just a stupid game", then you are insisting on the right to ruin immersive players' fun.

Now I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that - it's your game, your group, you run things how you want to. But don't then turn around and justify it by saying that people mustn't ruin other people's fun. What you mean is "people who don't game the way I do mustn't ruin the fun of people who do game the way I do". Say that instead.

Because if you're imagining that these immersive gamers just "pull those stunts to bring people down a peg or two as a power trip", then you're showing a severe lack of imagination in the empathy department. And remember, it only destroys the social harmony of the experience if it runs counter to the group dynamic, or, to use that awful phrase beloved of Forge-fans, the "social contract". In a room full of players committed to the playstyle you detest, obviously it's not going to ruin the harmony of anyone's experience. That's just people enforcing their own social dynamic (or "social contract", if you must).

Welcome to the RPG Site. But please drop the GNS lingo. "Simulationist", "system matters", even "elegant", it's all bullshit jargon. It will brainwash you, turn you into a zombie and make you hunger for brains.

Thanks

Quote from: Cheneybeast;689851Hey VM, I'm Ian, that guy destroying RPGs. I'm pretty new in the industry, so I'm small enough that I like to apply that "personal touch" and reply to comments.

I'd hate to think that my comment about spending more time designing than playing is an indictment of my abilities to make a game. The fact is, it's a lot easier for me to set up probability worksheets and write design theories on my laptop at home every day than it is for me to get my friends over to test things every time I have an idea. Don't think that this means I don't believe in play testing - I actually think play testing is a huge part of designing any game. I also feel that running it for my home group certainly isn't enough - I've had open play tests on G+, and I've run it for some of my friend's RPG groups as well. Heck, my hope is that I'll get feedback from backers of the Kickstarter once I mail out the play test episode, because the further divorced from the play test I am, the better the feedback I'll get.

Do I like mechanics? Heck yeah. The mechanisms and framework of a rule system can, in my experience, drastically change the way a game plays out. Just something as significant as change from GP=XP to XP for defeating monsters has really changed the way people play Dungeons & Dragons, for instance. There is obviously a lot more to games than the numbers and math behind them, but I think I've got a talent for that particular aspect of game design, and it's a fun hobby for me.

If you just don't like Stab City! because it's not the kind of game you play, hey man, that's totally fine. I like ketchup on my eggs, but I'm not going to get mad when someone orders breakfast different. There are all sorts of genres of games, and if I'm assuming correctly that you like old school trad games, then hey, we've got that in common. I just feel like life is too short to get stuck playing the same thing over and over. I've got Mentzer basic on my shelf right next to the box set for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3e, which itself is sitting next to my collection of old Wraith: The Oblivion books. I just happened to write this particular book this particular way, and hopefully people who like this sort of game will like it.

Anyway, I'm sorry for destroying the hobby or jerking off to numbers (is there a name for that fetish?) Maybe once Stab City! comes out, why don't you take a look at it and send me a review? I always enjoy hearing differing opinions on game design, and I love arguing about the correct way to play elfgames.

Welcome to the Grand Temple of the OneTrueWay. Now run like hell!

You have been warned.