I've owned the 3E GURPS basic book for 20+ years, but I've only played/run it a handful of times and not in the past decade or so.
I have downloaded and been poking at the 4E GURPS Lite, but so far don't see a lot of difference other than the cost of some things in character generation.
I know we have some GURPS guys here, so if you don't mind terribly, I have some questions.
1. What is the difference truly between 4E and 3E? Since I don't have to purchase 3E, is the change to 4E compelling enough that I should make an investment?
2. Is it possible for me to use 4E GURPS Lite with the skills, equipment, advantages and disadvantages, etc. from 3E (I also have 3E Black Ops and Ultra-tech 2)?
3. Our group has played Savage Worlds, why shouldn't I just use it instead of using GURPS?
4. If I did pick up 4E, I suppose I need the two Players and Campaigns books. Is there anything else that is a "must-have" purchase?
Don't have time for an in-depth reply right now but there are a few things that are different and improved in 4E IMHO:
1) No more half points. YAY!!
2) Smoothed out attribute costs. ST and HT are a flat 10 per level, and IQ and DX are a flat 20 per level. No more raising the cost of attributes after creation.
3) Languages. Much better now. Fixed the problem of the rocket scientist being fluent in any language for a half point.
4) Swapped HP and fatigue. HP are based on ST now and fatigue on HT. No need to have Ahhhnold for a mage to have decent FP with standard magic.
5) Got rid of PD. All armor is just DR. Active defenses in general got a much needed boost. Standard parry is now weapon skill/2 +3. Shields provide DB (defensive bonus)
As for what books are "must have" it depends on what you want to run. Banestorm is pretty awesome for fantasy.
Quote from: Kaz;6298553. Our group has played Savage Worlds, why shouldn't I just use it instead of using GURPS?
This is a bit like asking "I like the Ramones, will I like Queen?" They're both rock bands, sure, but there's a lot of difference between them.
SW & GURPS are certainly both traditional style RPGs, focused with providing a "physics engine" to support a game based on PCs exploring a defined world. But whereas SW is focused on a certain two-fisted pulp-influenced action style, and is designed principally to be a good system for you to run battles where the PCs are grappling with gorillas on the back of a spinning out of control zeppelin, while taking fire from strafing biplanes and being shot at from the ground, GURPS is designed principally to allow you to run any setting you want, using a reasonably wide range of genre styles.
These days, in 4e, my read is that GURPS is more of a RPG creation toolkit. Buy they books that interest you, choose which optional rules you want to make use of, and craft yourself the Precision GURPS Engine you need to run whatever setting you're interested in. If that's what you want - I think it's pretty good at it, from my experience (which is as a player rather than a GM).
Since the changes have been covered, I'll speak to the reasons for playing GURPS.
GURPS is the most comprehensive tool-kit rpg on the market today. It is very well supported with rules and equipment and abilities.for just about everything. I often feel short changed by Savage Worlds' minimal approach to equipment and abilities.
GURPS is centered at the fifty percent mark. That is to say the whiff factor is fifty percent on an average action and the bell curve ensures that higher skills dramatically improve on the odds.
The GURPS Basic Set is a pretty darn complete ruleset as it stands and can run anything from fantasy to low end super heroes. I'll confess to being in the camp that believes that discarding the point system to play high end supers is the same as saying GURPS doesn't work well for super heroes.
The combat system is a fun and detailed tactical game that strips down well for larger combats. People are often put off by the fiddly one second rounds but the key to the thing is to keep up the pace. Don't let people fiddle around or spend much time thinking, they've only got a second in which to act. You should also institute long lulls when all the combatants are hiding or circling. Just say, "you circle each other for a couple minutes until..." Don't try using the full combat system with a new group either, there's a basic combat system for a reason. Even if detailed tactical combat appeals to you start with the basics. Everything else builds on them. Also, run a basic fantasy or post apocalyptic game first. There's an aphorism about eating the whole cow and science fantasy and super heroes amount to trying to eat the whole herd.
Anyhow, back to reasons to play GURPS. It's stable. Savage Worlds has had four editions in the time GURPS has had one. D&D has had two and two halves. Fewer editions mean better value for your dollar. GURPS is fully available in pdf. Is supported with a character editor program that works even if it's a bit of a pain in the ass. There is a great deal of community created material for GURPS on the internet. And GURPS 4e covers the following settings: Infinite Worlds, Star Fleet, The Third Imperium, Nova Roma, Yrth, and Baryar with actual books. The last is the setting of Lois McMaster Bjold's Vorsiekian novels and is a good place to jump in as it is a stand alone science fiction game in its own right covering character creation, combat and starships.
Some good points have already been mentioned. The thing to keep in mind is that 3e suffered from rules bloat during it lifetime, with new supplements adding new rules all the time. Many of these were incompatible with other parts (most heinous, the 1st edition psionics rules attempting to mesh with the Supers book).
4e was a re-baselining of the rules, bringing the best of the accumulated rules into the core and jettisoning the rest. Perhaps the biggest change was in the pricing of powers, which moved much closer to the HERO concept of pricing them by utility rather than any other measure (so, for example, long life dropped from 100s of points down to 1 or 2 points as it doesn't have any significant effect in most campaigns). Rules for automatic weapons (and guns in general) were also cleared up. If you intend to use automatic weapons in your game, I would strongly recommend 4e.
You can mix 3e and 4e as many rules were not changed. There is a conversion guide downloadable from SJ Games website IIRC which would help. I think if you had the 'big four' - Characters, Campaigns, Powers, Martial Arts - then you would have most of the crunch in 4e form. There are a few other rules salted between books but they are of more marginal application. I personally consider Social Engineering to be a must-have book too, if you like to have character traits play a part in social interaction (and in GURPS theory you should get value for those points you invested, so it's a common approach there).
Comparing GURPS to Savage Worlds is like comparing Lego with Duplo, and I mean that in a non-pejorative way. Duplo pieces are chunkier and less fiddley but you have more refinement available with Lego. If the Duplo allows you to build what you want, go right ahead and use it. Otherwise switch to Lego but recognise you will have to snap together more pieces to build what you want.
I love me some GURPS (it was huge in Brazil in the early- to mid-1990s), but character creation is a giant pain in the ass.
There used to be a freeware character generator for 3e but I can't find it anymore. SJG sells the 4e version for $15.
Nowadays I default to BRP when I want grit, or SW and maybe D6 for over-the-top stuff. But really, GURPS has the absolute best supplement library in the hobby. Neither BRP nor SW come close.
Quote from: The Butcher;629927I love me some GURPS (it was huge in Brazil in the early- to mid-1990s), but character creation is a giant pain in the ass.
I almost always pre-build templets and lenses and make them more or less mandatory for PCs. I try to use up 60%-75% of total points this way.
It speeds things up considerably and gets everyone on the same page.
If I have a real GURPS whiz whom I trust not to be a dink I'll be more than happy to let them design a character from the ground up.
Similarly I'll work with people who really want something else.
But 90% of the time people are happy to use the templets.
I have never tried 4E, but 3E had by far the best supplement library out there.
I did (and still do) hate the one second rounds. Unless you have snappy table play it can really drag out combat. But the results of combat had a lot more believability than with many other systems (including Savage Words)
Quote from: The Butcher;629927There used to be a freeware character generator for 3e but I can't find it anymore. SJG sells the 4e version for $15.
There's a freeware one for 4e available online called "Gurps Character Sheet." It gets the job done and also exports to a pdf file for easy sharing and printing out.
As I run gritty modern day games in Gurps, what I like best is the cleaned up firearms rules in 4e. No more snap shot or buck fever penalties, the rapid fire rules have been streamlined, more ranged combat options in the main rules too. The removal of PD and the beefing up of active defenses feels a bit more user friendly in play.
Quote from: Votan;629939I have never tried 4E, but 3E had by far the best supplement library out there.
I did (and still do) hate the one second rounds. Unless you have snappy table play it can really drag out combat. But the results of combat had a lot more believability than with many other systems (including Savage Words)
The one second rounds are much easier to deal with when you view combat as fluidly slipping from combat time to narrative time. Instead of playing out each and every second.
Basically invoke combat time when people are actually attacking and narrate over the natural lulls.
I tried codifying this at one point by massively upping the FP cost of combat (and recovery, of course) so that combatants really couldn't fight continuously (at least effectively) without stopping to circle and breathe.
Then after breaking away each combatant would secretly decide how many rounds they were waiting (to regain FP). Whoever waited the shortest time gained initiative when they attacked (but also gained one fewer FP back).
Anyway, never got to try it out in play but I spent a while massaging it.
Quote from: Votan;629939I have never tried 4E, but 3E had by far the best supplement library out there.
I did (and still do) hate the one second rounds. Unless you have snappy table play it can really drag out combat. But the results of combat had a lot more believability than with many other systems (including Savage Words)
One second rounds do affect the way you approach combat, we found. I remember starting one combat 50m from the rest of the party (and with no LoS until I was close). The fight was over before I got there.
The big advantage of one second rounds is how easy they make translating descriptive actions into game terms. Players can just tell you what they want to do on their turn and you don't have to do much to figure out what that means over the course of a whole minute.
Quote from: Grymbok;629954One second rounds do affect the way you approach combat, we found. I remember starting one combat 50m from the rest of the party (and with no LoS until I was close). The fight was over before I got there.
While that's certainly possible, it'll take an average PC (10 dex and HT) 8.5 seconds to cover 50 yards (using sprinting rules, 10 if not), so it seems like a quick battle in any case.
Quote from: Piestrio;629974While that's certainly possible, it'll take an average PC (10 dex and HT) 8.5 seconds to cover 50 yards (using sprinting rules, 10 not), so it seems like a quick battle in any case.
Yeah, our experience was that most battles were over in less that 10 rounds, which of course is less than 10 seconds.
Hey guys, many thanks for the answers!
Can any of you speak to the binding issues I see popping up here and there?
Quote from: Kaz;630037Hey guys, many thanks for the answers!
Can any of you speak to the binding issues I see popping up here and there?
I've had no problems with the two volumes of the Basic Set or High Tech after over a year of ownership and five months of heavy use. I bought High Tech used and it was in good shape to begin with. My copy of Tactical Shooting is softcover perfect bound and has held up well, although it doesn't get used nearly as often as the other 3 books do.
I picked up Powers and Low Tech for Christmas and they seem well put together, but I haven't had a chance to use either of them beyond a cursory skim.
Anecdotally, I've seen SJ Games be pretty responsive to complaints about binding issues when they have popped up.
The first printing of Characters had terrible bindings and SJG replaced them for anyone who asked. They haven't cheaped out on bindings since.
If only Battle Front was half as respectable.
Quote from: David Johansen;630064The first printing of Characters had terrible bindings and SJG replaced them for anyone who asked.
Not for me :(
Three emails and I never got a response :(
9 years later I've still got a book with a broken spine (on the plus side pages haven't actually ever fallen out, so that's good I suppose :/ )
Mine fell apart the first time I opened it but I never bothered to ask for a refund. On the other hand Battlefront is my best selling line and their soft backs fall apart within a day of being touched by human hands.
You guys are awesome. Again, thanks.
Another question: What are you doing or have done with GURPS? Which supplements do you make the most use out of? (Martial Arts looks swanky and very attractive to me.) You doing homebrew stuff? Rocking some conversions?
Regale me with GURPS experiences!
Nothing at this moment, but plenty over the years:
A fantasy game where one PC was a fairy dragon obsessed with food.
A modern x-files style game with the characters investigating the paranormal.
An urban fantasy game where all the PCs were totally normal but weird shit was happening all around them.
A supers campaign where one of the characters was a Native American god reincarnated and another was a computer hologram (Automan!).
A 40k game were we were agents of the Inquisition, taking on Chaos, 'nids and meeting an Eldar Farseer
Martial Arts is a great book if you want to turn the dial for melee combat up to 11. It covers both armed and unarmed forms of combat. If you want a similar treatment for guns then there is Tactical Shooting which add extra realism or Gun Fu which adds extra cinematics.
What kind of game do you think you might run first and we can give you some more suggestions on useful supplements?
Quote from: Kaz;630111You guys are awesome. Again, thanks.
Another question: What are you doing or have done with GURPS? Which supplements do you make the most use out of? (Martial Arts looks swanky and very attractive to me.) You doing homebrew stuff? Rocking some conversions?
Regale me with GURPS experiences!
Some past campaigns:
A GURPS Fantasy campaign set in Tredroy. The campaign began with the PCs being in the middle of a gang war featuring Irish, Russian, Italian, Chinese, and Arabic mafia groups. Gang warfare led to finding out about some very dark powers at the heart of the conflict and stopping a major demon invasion.
A GURPS Swashbuckler campaign which began with the PCs as highwaymen in 17th century England. The PCs stumbled upon some strange happenings, saved an accused witch from the stake, and became drawn into an ongoing war between two different races of immortals. They struggled to survive and find out which race was striving to save mankind and which was trying to destroy it.
Another GURPS Swashbuckler campaign set in France during during the Fronde. The PCs were in the guard of Cardinal Mazarin and carried out missions as his secret agents. It was a great blend of swashbuckling and espionage.
A Old West campaign featuring the PCs as bounty hunters in 1878 New Mexico. Chasing down outlaw gangs, encountering ancient indian magic, corrupt politicians, and troubled homesteaders.
Good times. :)
My current GURPS game: the PCs are the Sheriff's Department for a sleepy and underpopulated county in the bootheel of New Mexico. They're combating Mexican drug cartels, corrupt local politicians, the mysterious disappearance of the previous sheriff, the odd murder in the desert and the fallout from their own brand of investigation. It's heavily influenced by Elmore Leonard, the TV adaptation of Justified and the outlaw country musical genre.
It could have been run successfully with just the basic set, but I've used snippets of High Tech, Mysteries, Tactical Shooting and Social Engineering to make it happen. The more supplements I read through, the less I feel that they're absolutely necessary.
Quote from: Dave;630220The more supplements I read through, the less I feel that they're absolutely necessary.
This is the sense I got from GURPS, which is counter to what one might expect. It is a sign of system mastery really I suppose. Justified as a part of a setting. Very cool.
Quote from: dbm;630164What kind of game do you think you might run first and we can give you some more suggestions on useful supplements?
I have some ideas. I'm thinking anything NOT fantasy since I have like nine versions of D&D for that. But I do remember really liking magic in GURPS 3E as a player. The freedom outside of Vancian casting was a lot of fun and the creativity I felt I had was freeing.
But I was thinking maybe some kinda GIJoe-esque commando squad and some 80s action movie style adventure stuff. I also thought about some future-space gaming that steers close to Mass Effect and Star Wars. Maybe some modern-day ninja (but man, copies of Martial Arts are pretty expensive). That stuff, mostly. If'n I love the shit outta the system, I'll use it for whatever the hell I feel like running.
I have run GURPS for 25 years with 95% of the campaigns set in the Majestic Wilderlands.
The only major downside of GURPS is the lack of prepared content including a decent monster manual. Although that getting better with the Dungeon Fantasy Line.
I use the following books
The Core Books
Magic
Thamutology (for some magical options)
Martial Arts
Low Tech
The Dungeon Fantasy line
The Dungeon Fantasy line is based around 250 pt character which I dislike. I think GURPS works best with 150 pt fantasy characters roughly equivalent to a mid level D&D character. Dungeon Fantasy Henchmen has a lot of useful templates for lower point characters. Just about the entire line is useful in one form or another.
I have to say that Dungeon Fantasy Treasure Table is one of the greatest treasure generation table I have ever seen.
Quote from: estar;630258I have run GURPS for 25 years with 95% of the campaigns set in the Majestic Wilderlands.
The only major downside of GURPS is the lack of prepared content including a decent monster manual. Although that getting better with the Dungeon Fantasy Line.
I use the following books
The Core Books
Magic
Thamutology (for some magical options)
Martial Arts
Low Tech
The Dungeon Fantasy line
The Dungeon Fantasy line is based around 250 pt character which I dislike. I think GURPS works best with 150 pt fantasy characters roughly equivalent to a mid level D&D character. Dungeon Fantasy Henchmen has a lot of useful templates for lower point characters. Just about the entire line is useful in one form or another.
I have to say that Dungeon Fantasy Treasure Table is one of the greatest treasure generation table I have ever seen.
It would be nice to have a dungeon fantasy line that covered the whole zero to hero range, perhaps 75 to 300+ points.
Quote from: Kuroth;630226Justified as a part of a setting. Very cool.
I was really lucky to find players who bought in to the idea and then also walk the line between cinematic police work and absolute mayhem.
Quote from: Kaz;630236Maybe some modern-day ninja (but man, copies of Martial Arts are pretty expensive).
Martial Arts is available as a pdf through the SJGames e-store. Normally I'd balk at paying $30 for a pdf, but I balk harder at paying $50+ for a used book.
Quote from: Kaz;630236I have some ideas. I'm thinking anything NOT fantasy since I have like nine versions of D&D for that. But I do remember really liking magic in GURPS 3E as a player. The freedom outside of Vancian casting was a lot of fun and the creativity I felt I had was freeing.
But I was thinking maybe some kinda GIJoe-esque commando squad and some 80s action movie style adventure stuff. I also thought about some future-space gaming that steers close to Mass Effect and Star Wars. Maybe some modern-day ninja (but man, copies of Martial Arts are pretty expensive). That stuff, mostly. If'n I love the shit outta the system, I'll use it for whatever the hell I feel like running.
Action is good for tweaking towards more gung-ho adventuring and the 3rd PDF includes elements of Martial Arts to cover your kung-fu action heros.
High Tech is good for modern fire arms and other gadgets, whilst
Ultra Tech would help with sci-fi. There is a series on
Spaceships if you want that to be significant. In terms of pre-baked sci-fi there is
Traveller and
Transhuman Space - not sure if either would be very helpful for a Mass Effect style game. You can do psychic powers straight out of the basic book, but there is a series of Psionics PDFs which could help reduce the amount of power building you need to do yourself.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;630267It would be nice to have a dungeon fantasy line that covered the whole zero to hero range, perhaps 75 to 300+ points.
It kinda does, with templates for heros, top-up to get to the 300pt level and henchmen for the lower points totals.
GURPS 4/e is Better.
In the past 10 years - it has been the easiest game for my new players and 'new to RPGs in general' to adapt to.
- Ed C.
(also its the only game that had a 'Kung Fu Fire-breathing Jesus' as an illustration)
Quote from: Koltar;630308GURPS 4/e is Better.
In the past 10 years - it has been the easiest game for my new players and 'new to RPGs in general' to adapt to.
I also concur, GURPS 4e just works smoother than 3e.
Quote from: Koltar;630308GURPS 4/e is Better.
In the past 10 years - it has been the easiest game for my new players and 'new to RPGs in general' to adapt to.
- Ed C.
(also its the only game that had a 'Kung Fu Fire-breathing Jesus' as an illustration)
Quote from: estar;630316I also concur, GURPS 4e just works smoother than 3e.
Agreed.
HOWEVER I don't know that it's enough better to be worth the cost IF you already have a buch of 3e stuff that you're happy with.
Quote from: Piestrio;630331Agreed.
HOWEVER I don't know that it's enough better to be worth the cost IF you already have a buch of 3e stuff that you're happy with.
Unlike certain
other roleplaying games out there - the 3rd to 4th conversion is pretty damn easy. Heq, you can even download the GM packet/3rd-4th edition update as a pdf !
I was using 3rd edition GURPS stuff as background for my
GURPS:TRAVELLER game that used 4th edition rules all the time.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Kuroth;630226This is the sense I got from GURPS, which is counter to what one might expect. It is a sign of system mastery really I suppose. Justified as a part of a setting. Very cool.
That's what I like about the supplements. They're more imagination-fuel than necessary mechanics.
JG
The more I read about Martial Arts, the more excited I get. Sounds like an excellent book that really creates the feeling of being in a back-and-forth battle. I suppose YMMV like pretty much everything, but it's got me pretty jacked.
I know one of my FLGS has a copy still at cover price. My intent is to fly by there tomorrow to pick up before I even buy the two basic books.
Quote from: Kaz;630478The more I read about Martial Arts, the more excited I get. Sounds like an excellent book that really creates the feeling of being in a back-and-forth battle. I suppose YMMV like pretty much everything, but it's got me pretty jacked.
I know one of my FLGS has a copy still at cover price. My intent is to fly by there tomorrow to pick up before I even buy the two basic books.
It is well worth the price. It is my favorite supplement for 4E to date (low tech being almost equal)
The stuff in MA is applicable for so many diffferent genres and game types.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;630479The stuff in MA is applicable for so many diffferent genres and game types.
I read that in a review somewhere and that's what really got me pitching a tent over it. The idea that I could use it for a wild Immortal Weapons of K'un L'un game and also a straight-up Conan-style S&S game just really sold me.
Quote from: Kaz;630478The more I read about Martial Arts, the more excited I get. Sounds like an excellent book that really creates the feeling of being in a back-and-forth battle. I suppose YMMV like pretty much everything, but it's got me pretty jacked.
I know one of my FLGS has a copy still at cover price. My intent is to fly by there tomorrow to pick up before I even buy the two basic books.
The trick is to go through the book and pick out the few items you need for what you are focusing on for that character. Consolidate it into a cheat sheet and use that during play. It does have a few rules you want everybody particularly the new maneuvers. But those amount to a few lines on your existing cheat sheets.
This is a good one
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10971026/Combat%20Maneuvers%20Cheat%20Sheet%202.04.pdf
Quote from: estar;630492This is a good one
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10971026/Combat%20Maneuvers%20Cheat%20Sheet%202.04.pdf
What am I looking at here? Is this a breakdown of each of the available actions and choices and what that particular character's skill/roll would be?
In other words, the numbers (and some actions) would be different depending on the character, yes?
Quote from: Kaz;630509What am I looking at here? Is this a breakdown of each of the available actions and choices and what that particular character's skill/roll would be?
In other words, the numbers (and some actions) would be different depending on the character, yes?
The way GURPS combat works is that you select a Maneuver. That maneuver will allow a certain amount of movement, a certain action, and may or may not effect your defense. May select only Maneuver per round.
A Move Maneuver for example allow you to move a number of yards equal to your Move score and has no effect on your defense.
An Attack Maneuver allows you to step one yard in any direction and make a attack roll. And has not effect on your defense.
An All-Out Attack Maneuver allows you to move up to half your move score, attack with a selected bonus (+4 to hit, +2 damage, etc), and you get no defense rolls until the your next combat round.
Any attack roll is based off of the character's skill.
If you want GURPS Combat example this is the page to goto
http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/
Quote from: estar;630513If you want GURPS Combat example this is the page to goto
http://www.themook.net/rpg/examples/
Thanks, Estar.
The example link looks like a treasure trove, I'll be diving into that soon.
Quote from: Kaz;630516Thanks, Estar.
The example link looks like a treasure trove, I'll be diving into that soon.
Your welcome. And remember the basics are not complicated it just they offer a lot of options to use. The core combat rules has only 13 Maneuvers.
Finally GURPS has the virtue of having the roll equating to a single action. There is very little abstraction in the design of GURPS combat.
4e and 3e alike are not to my tastes.
I did like 3e GURPS lite.
RPGPundit
GURPS rocks but I prefer Fantasy Craft only because I like D20 and fantasy/horror/urban fantasy/horror over sci-fi. GURPS is unmatched for sci-fi and heroes for a open generic system. My experience is with 2e mostly, limited 3e.
Is anybody running a game using GURPS via Google+ Hangouts? Complexity/combat options/setting/whatever doesn't matter. I'd just like to sit in and watch how things go down. Get a feel for it.
Alternatively, if anyone is considering a short campaign or a one-off, I'd certainly jump in if my schedule permits.
I saw on the GURPS community on Google+ that there is an "arena" thing on Saturdays, which I will check out, but I'd like to see the game in a regular gaming atmosphere, too.
Is not using Google Hangouts a deal breaker? We use Roll20 and Mumble.
No. Not a dealbreaker. I use Roll20 in Hangouts for my D&D game, so I'm familiar with it.
Never heard of Mumble, but as long as its free, I can give it a try.
Sent you a PM.