I've owned the 3E GURPS basic book for 20+ years, but I've only played/run it a handful of times and not in the past decade or so.

I have downloaded and been poking at the 4E GURPS Lite, but so far don't see a lot of difference other than the cost of some things in character generation.

I know we have some GURPS guys here, so if you don't mind terribly, I have some questions.

1. What is the difference truly between 4E and 3E? Since I don't have to purchase 3E, is the change to 4E compelling enough that I should make an investment?

2. Is it possible for me to use 4E GURPS Lite with the skills, equipment, advantages and disadvantages, etc. from 3E (I also have 3E Black Ops and Ultra-tech 2)?

3. Our group has played Savage Worlds, why shouldn't I just use it instead of using GURPS?

4. If I did pick up 4E, I suppose I need the two Players and Campaigns books. Is there anything else that is a "must-have" purchase?

Don't have time for an in-depth reply right now but there are a few things that are different and improved in 4E IMHO:

1) No more half points. YAY!!

2) Smoothed out attribute costs. ST and HT are a flat 10 per level, and IQ and DX are a flat 20 per level. No more raising the cost of attributes after creation.

3) Languages. Much better now. Fixed the problem of the rocket scientist being fluent in any language for a half point.

4) Swapped HP and fatigue. HP are based on ST now and fatigue on HT. No need to have Ahhhnold for a mage to have decent FP with standard magic.

5) Got rid of PD. All armor is just DR. Active defenses in general got a much needed boost. Standard parry is now weapon skill/2 +3. Shields provide DB (defensive bonus)

As for what books are "must have" it depends on what you want to run. Banestorm is pretty awesome for fantasy.

Quote from: Kaz;6298553. Our group has played Savage Worlds, why shouldn't I just use it instead of using GURPS?

This is a bit like asking "I like the Ramones, will I like Queen?" They're both rock bands, sure, but there's a lot of difference between them.

SW & GURPS are certainly both traditional style RPGs, focused with providing a "physics engine" to support a game based on PCs exploring a defined world. But whereas SW is focused on a certain two-fisted pulp-influenced action style, and is designed principally to be a good system for you to run battles where the PCs are grappling with gorillas on the back of a spinning out of control zeppelin, while taking fire from strafing biplanes and being shot at from the ground, GURPS is designed principally to allow you to run any setting you want, using a reasonably wide range of genre styles.

These days, in 4e, my read is that GURPS is more of a RPG creation toolkit. Buy they books that interest you, choose which optional rules you want to make use of, and craft yourself the Precision GURPS Engine you need to run whatever setting you're interested in. If that's what you want - I think it's pretty good at it, from my experience (which is as a player rather than a GM).

Since the changes have been covered, I'll speak to the reasons for playing GURPS.

GURPS is the most comprehensive tool-kit rpg on the market today.  It is very well supported with rules and equipment and abilities.for just about everything.  I often feel short changed by Savage Worlds' minimal approach to equipment and abilities.

GURPS is centered at the fifty percent mark.  That is to say the whiff factor  is fifty percent on an average action and the bell curve ensures that higher skills dramatically improve on the odds.

The GURPS Basic Set is a pretty darn complete ruleset as it stands and can run anything from fantasy to low end super heroes.  I'll confess to being in the camp that believes that discarding the point system to play high end supers is the same as saying GURPS doesn't work well for super heroes.

The combat system is a fun and detailed tactical game that strips down well for larger combats.  People are often put off by the fiddly one second rounds but the key to the thing is to keep up the pace.  Don't let people fiddle around or spend much time thinking, they've only got a second in which to act.  You should also institute long lulls when all the combatants are hiding or circling.  Just say, "you circle each other for a couple minutes until..."  Don't try using the full combat system with a new group either, there's a basic combat system for a reason.  Even if detailed tactical combat appeals to you start with the basics.  Everything else builds on them.  Also, run a basic fantasy or post apocalyptic game first.  There's an aphorism about eating the whole cow and science fantasy and super heroes amount to trying to eat the whole herd.

Anyhow, back to reasons to play GURPS.  It's stable.  Savage Worlds has had four editions in the time GURPS has had one. D&D has had two and two halves.  Fewer editions mean better value for your dollar.  GURPS is fully available in pdf.  Is supported with a character editor program that works even if it's a bit of a pain in the ass.  There is a great deal of community created material for GURPS on the internet.  And GURPS 4e covers the following settings: Infinite Worlds, Star Fleet, The Third Imperium, Nova Roma, Yrth, and Baryar with actual books.  The last is the setting of Lois McMaster Bjold's Vorsiekian novels and is a good place to jump in as it is a stand alone science fiction game in its own right covering character creation, combat and starships.

Some good points have already been mentioned. The thing to keep in mind is that 3e suffered from rules bloat during it lifetime, with new supplements adding new rules all the time. Many of these were incompatible with other parts (most heinous, the 1st edition psionics rules attempting to mesh with the Supers book).

4e was a re-baselining of the rules, bringing the best of the accumulated rules into the core and jettisoning the rest. Perhaps the biggest change was in the pricing of powers, which moved much closer to the HERO concept of pricing them by utility rather than any other measure (so, for example, long life dropped from 100s of points down to 1 or 2 points as it doesn't have any significant effect in most campaigns). Rules for automatic weapons (and guns in general) were also cleared up.  If you intend to use automatic weapons in your game, I would strongly recommend 4e.

You can mix 3e and 4e as many rules were not changed. There is a conversion guide downloadable from SJ Games website IIRC which would help. I think if you had the 'big four' - Characters, Campaigns, Powers, Martial Arts - then you would have most of the crunch in 4e form. There are a few other rules salted between books but they are of more marginal application. I personally consider Social Engineering to be a must-have book too, if you like to have character traits play a part in social interaction (and in GURPS theory you should get value for those points you invested, so it's a common approach there).

Comparing GURPS to Savage Worlds is like comparing Lego with Duplo, and I mean that in a non-pejorative way. Duplo pieces are chunkier and less fiddley but you have more refinement available with Lego. If the Duplo allows you to build what you want, go right ahead and use it. Otherwise switch to Lego but recognise you will have to snap together more pieces to build what you want.

I love me some GURPS (it was huge in Brazil in the early- to mid-1990s), but character creation is a giant pain in the ass.

There used to be a freeware character generator for 3e but I can't find it anymore. SJG sells the 4e version for $15.

Nowadays I default to BRP when I want grit, or SW and maybe D6 for over-the-top stuff. But really, GURPS has the absolute best supplement library in the hobby. Neither BRP nor SW come close.

Quote from: The Butcher;629927I love me some GURPS (it was huge in Brazil in the early- to mid-1990s), but character creation is a giant pain in the ass.

I almost always pre-build templets and lenses and make them more or less mandatory for PCs. I try to use up 60%-75% of total points this way.

It speeds things up considerably and gets everyone on the same page.

If I have a real GURPS whiz whom I trust not to be a dink I'll be more than happy to let them design a character from the ground up.

Similarly I'll work with people who really want something else.

But 90% of the time people are happy to use the templets.

I have never tried 4E, but 3E had by far the best supplement library out there.

I did (and still do) hate the one second rounds.  Unless you have snappy table play it can really drag out combat.  But the results of combat had a lot more believability than with many other systems (including Savage Words)

Quote from: The Butcher;629927There used to be a freeware character generator for 3e but I can't find it anymore. SJG sells the 4e version for $15.

There's a freeware one for 4e available online called "Gurps Character Sheet."  It gets the job done and also exports to a pdf file for easy sharing and printing out.

As I run gritty modern day games in Gurps, what I like best is the cleaned up firearms rules in 4e.  No more snap shot or buck fever penalties, the rapid fire rules have been streamlined, more ranged combat options in the main rules too.  The removal of PD and the beefing up of active defenses feels a bit more user friendly in play.

Quote from: Votan;629939I have never tried 4E, but 3E had by far the best supplement library out there.

I did (and still do) hate the one second rounds.  Unless you have snappy table play it can really drag out combat.  But the results of combat had a lot more believability than with many other systems (including Savage Words)

The one second rounds are much easier to deal with when you view combat as fluidly slipping from combat time to narrative time. Instead of playing out each and every second.

Basically invoke combat time when people are actually attacking and narrate over the natural lulls.

I tried codifying this at one point by massively upping the FP cost of combat (and recovery, of course) so that combatants really couldn't fight continuously (at least effectively) without stopping to circle and breathe.

Then after breaking away each combatant would secretly decide how many rounds they were waiting (to regain FP). Whoever waited the shortest time gained initiative when they attacked (but also gained one fewer FP back).

Anyway, never got to try it out in play but I spent a while massaging it.

Quote from: Votan;629939I have never tried 4E, but 3E had by far the best supplement library out there.

I did (and still do) hate the one second rounds.  Unless you have snappy table play it can really drag out combat.  But the results of combat had a lot more believability than with many other systems (including Savage Words)

One second rounds do affect the way you approach combat, we found. I remember starting one combat 50m from the rest of the party (and with no LoS until I was close). The fight was over before I got there.

The big advantage of one second rounds is how easy they make translating descriptive actions into game terms.  Players can just tell you what they want to do on their turn and you don't have to do much to figure out what that means over the course of a whole minute.

Quote from: Grymbok;629954One second rounds do affect the way you approach combat, we found. I remember starting one combat 50m from the rest of the party (and with no LoS until I was close). The fight was over before I got there.

While that's certainly possible, it'll take an average PC (10 dex and HT) 8.5 seconds to cover 50 yards (using sprinting rules, 10 if not), so it seems like a quick battle in any case.

Quote from: Piestrio;629974While that's certainly possible, it'll take an average PC (10 dex and HT) 8.5 seconds to cover 50 yards (using sprinting rules, 10 not), so it seems like a quick battle in any case.

Yeah, our experience was that most battles were over in less that 10 rounds, which of course is less than 10 seconds.

Hey guys, many thanks for the answers!

Can any of you speak to the binding issues I see popping up here and there?