Quote from: Elliot WilenI've gone over this before, it's the same reason people hate operating systems or programming languages: the networking effect. Fans of X hate that option Y exists, because Y reduces the utility of X by the number of people who'd choose X if only Y wasn't around.

This is (more like was) the foundation of my problem with D20 and 3rd edition D&D.  The flaws of the system itself aren't all that bad.  They are magnified immensely when it is the only thing you can play.  But what really turned it from annoyance to anger towards the system and its players was the attitude of the majority of its players that I encountered towards non-D20 games.  It was the attitude of the ignorant status quo, which is the assumption that the thing you are using is either the only true thing or the best.  This is what causes so much bitterness in the minority group.  Think Mac users 10 years ago or Canadians.

The problem with making this argument on the internet, is that most D20 and D&D fans on the internet are not ignorant of other games and have often tried them.  Their adhesion to D20 is based generally on honest preference based on experience.  But this was not the case, at least for me, in the groups I encountered in meatspace.  Both in my own gaming group, where there was a profound resistance to try anything different and later when I moved to the general gaming community in Montreal where it took me a year to find a group of gamers who wanted to do something other than D20.  And I encountered a lot of blank faces and even scorn during that year.

Part of the mindset to ignore or belittle anything that wasn't D20, I suspect comes from the system itself (in this case 3.5) which has such a steep, empirical learning curve compared to more rationalized systems, so that players are loathe to have to go through all that time learning the system again, under the mistaken assumption that all systems require you to learn a bunch of specific class abilities and feat chains to be effective.  The other part is from WotC's exclusionary marketing and the general geek infantile consumerism which demands glossy, high-production value books to encourage immersion and a sense of escape (because the system itself isn't doing a very good job).

But had history been different, and Palladium or Pinnacle or Evil Hat were WotC, I would have had the same problem with those systems if they were in the majority and the players of those dominant games belittled or ignored anything that wasn't those systems.

However, all that being said, it seems like this mindset has been dissipating in the last two years.  I think that the fun of 3.5 was starting to run out for D&D fans, the D20 (and WotC supplement) glut woke some people up to the failings of the system and the WotC marketing plan.  And I think the internet has really given people a lot more information so that they are exposed to other games and gaming ideas.  Finally, I think in general it seems like dominant marketing paradigms are not as totally pervasive as they were.  Large brands still dominate, but there is so much consuming going on that there is accepted room for alternatives.  Consumers outside of the majority are more and more recognized as trendsetters, or a niche market with a potential for side sales.

All I've ever wanted was diversity and choice.  As Eliot suggested above, the networking effect limits my choice.  Where my lack of choice turns emotional and negative towards a system is when my own desire for diversity is treated as invalid.

Fortunately, through general change in the industry and the effort of a small group of hard-working gamers, I have seen some very positive developments in my own area towards increasing gaming diversity, thus increasing opportunities for myself to play all kinds of games with a great group of people

Quote from: Elliot WilenI've gone over this before, it's the same reason people hate operating systems or programming languages: the networking effect. Fans of X hate that option Y exists, because Y reduces the utility of X by the number of people who'd choose X if only Y wasn't around.

This does seem reasonable, Elliot....but honestly - :boohoo: . I realize it's difficult finding folks who like the games one does, but it can be done. I'm guessing the haters don't even want to make the effort. They probably don't even try to get non-gamers interested in gaming. Hating is the easy way out.

Regards,
David R

I've told this story a few times. I was a playtester for Torg 2nd Edition in 1998 (the unreleased version written by "Kansas Jim" Ogle). This is a story about the ubiquity of D&D, and how I got started playing again.

Playtesting Torg did not go well. Not because the playtesting itself didn't go well, but because it was like pulling teeth getting people to show up. I started out as a recruitee, and eventually I had to take over for the GM as far as finding a plce to host the game, and to keep looking for other recruitees. There were at least 2 no-shows every session, and some of these guys couldn't be bothered to put names on their character sheets.

So one session, the GM cancelled out (as he did often), and 3 other players canceled out, leaving me with 1 guy already at my house, and I wasn't the GM and I didn't have the playtest materials. I DID have my original Torg books, though.

Well, anyhow. I was trying to figure out what we should do, if not cancel the entire night. That guy, who I forget his name, said "Maybe we should just play AD&D...I have my books from last night". This was in the days of AD&D2.

So after considering Feng Shui, DC Heroes, and Earthdawn I said, "sure". I did *not* have AD&D2 books, I had the Core Rules CD someone had loaned me for the mapping.

A neighbor who happened to be there said "Your'e running AD&D2? I want to play."

And I said great, thats two players.

And then she said "I'll make some phone calls".

15 minutes later I had 6 people in my living room rolling up characters.

I have never looked back since.

I think people resent D&D because it's what everyone else actually wants to play.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw......................................................................................
A neighbor who happened to be there said "Your'e running AD&D2? I want to play."

And I said great, thats two players.

And then she said "I'll make some phone calls".

15 minutes later I had 6 people in my living room rolling up characters.

I have never looked back since.

I think people resent D&D because it's what everyone else actually wants to play.

Your example illustrates something.

 Everyone, take a look at all those sales charts that I postred in that sticky thread. Dungeons & Dragons wins every month....including the d20 spinofffs and variations.


- Ed C.


Minor Irony: I would've LOVED to be a player in a game of TORG  - I read and enjoyed the 3 paperback novels that were meant to introduce the universe  - but I could never find a group of people that were playing it.

To be fair- at the time, AD&D and D&D were synonymous in the general population. D&D was either the generic term or specifically used for "Basic D&D".

But yeah, there are several versions, and every one of them simultaneously seems to count as a separate game and part of the same phenomenon.

Koltar, I would have invited you to Torg any day.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI think people resent D&D because it's what everyone else actually wants to play.

My experience is that though many player like games other than D&D, D&D is the one common element that everyone knows. When polling a group about what to play, a typical vote would run like

Player 1: I'd like A, B, C, or D&D
Player 2: I'd like C, E, F, or D&D
Player 3: I'd like G, H, I, or D&D

If you happen to be player 4 that wants (say) A, E, or J, but not D&D then you lose*.

* - Then you go off and write pissy notes on message boards, and try to conceive reasons to convince yourself and everyone else that the D&D is clunky/outdated/unsuitable.

Clearly a lot of people resent having to play D&D because it's the only game they can find other players for. So they end up hating D&D and D&D players because they're an obstacle to playing the games they dream about playing. Sucks for them, but then maybe no gaming is better than bad gaming.

I've got the perfect summary!  At least as far as 3.5 goes...

The current version of D&D brings the game up to the design state of the art we saw in the mid ninties.  If it had brought it up to the state of the art we had in the mid eighties it would be much better.  (after skill systems were standard but before the big list of character powers model came along...)

Quote from: Caesar SlaadIf you happen to be player 4 that wants (say) A, E, or J, but not D&D then you lose*.

That attitude is probably what grates the hardest. There are some really passive-aggressive puds out there that just stick in their heels about playing anything else (and god help you if something else actually gets played) because they assume that D&D must be the default, and it must be the default all the time. ((EDIT: So they just need to sabatoge any attempt to play other games.))  Which gets put back on D&D. Which it shouldn't but it does.

Quote from: David RThis does seem reasonable, Elliot....but honestly - :boohoo: . I realize it's difficult finding folks who like the games one does, but it can be done. I'm guessing the haters don't even want to make the effort. They probably don't even try to get non-gamers interested in gaming. Hating is the easy way out.

Regards,
David R

Bingo, David! I couldn't agree more, and that's what I did.

-clash

Quote from: David RThis does seem reasonable, Elliot....but honestly - :boohoo: . I realize it's difficult finding folks who like the games one does, but it can be done. I'm guessing the haters don't even want to make the effort. They probably don't even try to get non-gamers interested in gaming. Hating is the easy way out.

Indeed, go out and find other people that want to play something else. Anything else.  Don't mimic what you are suppositily trying to get away from, the "I'll only play X."

Quote from: blakkieThat attitude is probably what grates the hardest. There are some really passive-aggressive puds out there that just stick their heels about playing anything else (and god help you if something else actually gets played) because they assume that D&D must be the default, and it must be the default all the time.  Which gets put back on D&D. Which it shouldn't but it does.

I put up with this attitude for 20 years, then I said "screw it." I just refused to run D&D any more, dropped my gaming group when they bitched, and started a new one that played other games by making new gamers. Works great!

-clash

Quote from: David RThis does seem reasonable, Elliot....but honestly - :boohoo: . I realize it's difficult finding folks who like the games one does, but it can be done.

True.

Quote from: David RI'm guessing the haters don't even want to make the effort. They probably don't even try to get non-gamers interested in gaming.

False.  I have made a ton of effort and it's paid off.  But I was hating during that time.  I still have a little hate for the ning-heads who stand in front of the vast shelves of D20 books, all looking more or less the same and completely ignoring the equally vast rows of non-D20 rpg's to the right (our LGS has an excellent stock), the kind of people who think that D20 Modern is a radical departure from the norm (overheard at my LGS:  "Glenn would never go for it.").  

Quote from: David RHating is the easy way out.

Well, yes and no.  It's hard to lose the resentment and the bitterness.  Look at the middle east.  Though, yes, I agree with the general sentiment that we should work to be positive rather than negative.

Quote from: flyingmiceI put up with this attitude for 20 years, then I said "screw it." I just refused to run D&D any more, dropped my gaming group when they bitched, and started a new one that played other games by making new gamers. Works great!

I now collect refuges from mono-gaming disasters. I'm currently up to 3 gaming sessions/week. At the moment I'm not GMing a single one of them. Which is my preference. Although I think I'm going to start GMing in one of them this Sunday.

EDIT: D'oh, actually one of the others I'm going to start GMing on Sunday too. But that's Burning Empires so it's a lot like I get to play.

Quote from: walkerpIt's hard to lose the resentment and the bitterness.  Look at the middle east.  

Holy lack of perspective.

Look, most people like what they know. They like the authors they know, they like the games they know, they like the food that they know, they like the television genres that they know.

I'm guessing that in one or more of those areas you know what you like and aren't interested in pushing your boundaries. Maybe it's fiction.  Are you interested when an acquaintence recommends a recent Booker Prize nominee? Or do you just read fantasy/sci-fi? Are you happy to try Lebanese, Indonesian, or Carribean food? Or do you stick to steak and pizza and chinese food?

Fact is, learning a new RPG game or game system is a heck of a lot more work than reading a novel outside your genre, or trying a new cuisine. You have at least one entire gaming session of learning just how to make and use your PCs, and then several more before you become comfortable with the mechanics and how they work together. Never mind immersing yourself in a new setting. That can take months.

Frankly, I'm surprised there are as many gamers as there are who try multiple systems in a year. You have to kind of love newness for its own sake, and learning new systems and settings, in order to welcome that sort of routine change. And good on you if you find a group that shares your comfort with trying new games. But don't shit on the people who are happy enough with what they know, because you likely have aspects of your own life where you don't stick your neck out too far from your shell. It's only because you care about gaming much, much more than most people that you're frustrated at their complacency over what is a simple passtime for them.