Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936926Hush, you and your "having some fucking idea of history."

What, you mean English longbowmen didn't fight like Legolas?

Quote from: AsenRG;936928Thank you:).

You're welcome.

Quote from: AsenRG;936928If you had added the Shotgun Sally example, too, this post might have doubled as "playing realistic and interesting NPCs", too;).

Gotta save something for future posts.

Quote from: David Johansen;936949The discovery that a long bow isn't a combination high powered sniper rifle / machinegun all rolled into one is almost as unsettling as discovering that a katana is just a really nice sword that can't cut through three inches of oak in a single blow.

The hell you say!

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936969What, you mean English longbowmen didn't fight like Legolas?

The hell you say!

1: A really good archer could pump out quite a few arrows in short order. But the average one was probably not. Theres a thread from a while back on that subject.

2: A good longsword performs about the same. But looks cooler. so nya! :cool:

Quote from: Pete Nash;936958Not only was he was on full HP, but was young and arrogant to boot.

So 2nd level OD&D Conan. Lucky to have 12 HP and probably up against one of us DMs who give arbalest's more damage and bonuses than heavy crossbows.

Quote from: Spinachcat;936994So 2nd level OD&D Conan. Lucky to have 12 HP and probably up against one of us DMs who give arbalest's more damage and bonuses than heavy crossbows.

At that point Conan was a seasoned veteran of battles since he was in the thick of it even at a young age. Also. Literature does not translate to game rules. Ever. Conan is in the example while young and arrogant. Still someone whos participated in one or more viscious raids and knows that being run through something vital with a pointy object is going to kill him no matter how good he is. Does he take the risk or not?

Also. Nice try but thats not a viable example as Conan isnt standing there letting the guard perforate him.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936969What, you mean English longbowmen didn't fight like Legolas?

Oh, sure.  I suppose next you're going to claim that the English longbowmen didn't use their shields as surfboards and ride them in battle.

Quote from: Omega;937029At that point Conan was a seasoned veteran of battles since he was in the thick of it even at a young age.

Back when D&D used level titles, a first-level Fighter was designated a "Veteran".  So second level, as Spinachcat suggested, would be a cut above the typical veteran.  That seems to fit a "seasoned veteran".

Conan, about the time of God in the Bowl, had certainly killed a whole lot of people, fighting as a Cimmerian.  He hadn't yet traveled the world, served as or commanded either Pirates or Free Companions, so while extremely dangerous he was still, as Ned Two-Trees would say, "young and full of beans".  It's clear from that story, he was pretty sure he could take the guys in the house, even when he had the arbalest pointed at him - or at least kill enough to get away, relying on his speed and strength.  

In OD&D, he's probably 2nd level, maybe 3rd, with the other guys first level.

The problem is, in OD&D, Conan is unarmored, so aside from being able to chop down a couple per round (if you're using that rule whenever it first appeared), Conan probably isn't going to make it.  Is he dodging, moving, whether trying to get away or close for the kill?  That's his hit points, which they are going to be whittling away.

In Mythras, Conan being a Cimmerian and well, Conan, that means he probably has decent stats so a good initiative and being unarmored helps here.  So if he wins initiative, he can use techniques like Outmaneuvre to prevent getting wolfpacked, and with his skills and stats being higher, his chances of evading, outmaneuvering, etc. successfully are much higher compared to the lower skilled guards.  The expenditure of Hit Points (aka Fatigue) will set in, but more slowly then it will in D&D as those near misses don't cost a resource hit point spend to turn them from wounds to fatigue.  As a result...

• OD&D - Young Conan's confidence is really bravado, the system doesn't give the player the tools to be realistically someone like young Conan, unless you want to kick his level up to 4th or something.  The system just isn't granular enough, level is the only real determinant.
• AD&D - Using Gary's Barbarian class from UA, and most of the guards being 0-level, now we're getting much closer to the reality of that fight. Conan will be probably cutting down a couple guards per round, as his weapon now probably does more damage than their HD, and he gets multiple attacks, plus greater Str bonus to damage. His AC and HP bonuses from the Barbarian class better reflect Conan's "Tiger-like" grace and power.  This fight, Conan's abilities do match his confidence.  He will probably win this fight, killing them all.
• Mythras - Conan doesn't really have any special abilities, he just comes from a culture that will grant him better physical stats and higher weapon skills due to the hostile nature of his upbringing.  Those natural stats and higher skills, mean he will be attempting the same types of maneuvers that any fighter would against superior numbers, but, he'll have a better chance of doing them.  However, the Mythras combat system being what it is, he'll probably not be fighting to kill them all, because a single critical can ruin your day.  So, outnumbered, he'll be doing what Conan always does when outnumbered and no real motivation to kill, he'll kill whoever he needs to, to get away.

So, despite having the most detailed combat system out of the three, it's actually Mythras that best matches the fiction, without any narrative stuff needed.  (Arguably, it also better matches what might happen in real life, but for a lot of people, that's not even needed or desired.)  Granted, Mythras does have some optional narrative stuff, like Luck Points and Passions, but they aren't needed to make that fight seem Howardian.

What's my point?  The system you use has to have the capacity for the detail you require.  
Too simplistic is also too generic, there's no room to maneuver in dealing with special circumstances, there's not enough granularity.  
Too complicated is too slow.  A 10v10 is fast in OD&D, still fast in AD&D, not all that fast in Mythras if you're using all combat options for every combatant.

Of course, "Too" is completely relative.  It's going to vary by player, GM, table, type of game, etc.

Quote from: CRKrueger;937098(snipped)
So, despite having the most detailed combat system out of the three, it's actually Mythras that best matches the fiction, without any narrative stuff needed.  (Arguably, it also better matches what might happen in real life, but for a lot of people, that's not even needed or desired.)  Granted, Mythras does have some optional narrative stuff, like Luck Points and Passions, but they aren't needed to make that fight seem Howardian.

What's my point?  The system you use has to have the capacity for the detail you require.  
Too simplistic is also too generic, there's no room to maneuver in dealing with special circumstances, there's not enough granularity.  
Too complicated is too slow.  A 10v10 is fast in OD&D, still fast in AD&D, not all that fast in Mythras if you're using all combat options for every combatant.

Of course, "Too" is completely relative.  It's going to vary by player, GM, table, type of game, etc.

There's a good reason why Mythras and Conan's stories fit like a glove. Both actually reflect some level of understanding of what a skilled fighter can do to less skilled opponents, and how much of an issue multiple opponents can be:).
We have mentioned before on this forum that at least one of Mythras' authors is a pretty serious reenactor. My limited experience with reenactment shows that there are many people who have a kit but no real skills.
On his side, Howard was quite a good old-school boxer, according to the accounts I've read. Given his upbringing, that probably means he's faced a few weapons from the wrong side, too, and street fights aren't always one on one;).

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936925They were meant for massed fire at a similarly massed target.

Exactly, I ran a GURPS campaign where everybody was a city guard. One the tools they adopted was a max strength crossbow they called a Knight Killer. Individually it was pretty hit or miss even with a 13 or 14 skill. However with five PCs lets loose a volley at the start of the round something went down and that enough to give them the edge on some tough foes.

Quote from: David Johansen;936921One place I never feel GURPS works very well is that crossbow.  Because once you dodge it, and if you have a shield and or drop, you'll probably dodge it, it takes forever to reload.  Black powder firearms are in the same boat.  As written, it's too easy to dodge one shot wonder weapons.  Though, bear in mind, if you fail to dodge, you probably aren't getting any closer to the shooter.

I've had several hunting crossbows so my dad and I could go after deer and coyote- all three were recurves.  After using them for a while, I can heartily say that they would be the last thing I would ever take adventuring- ever.  All three went down the road.

Quote from: CRKrueger;937098Conan, about the time of God in the Bowl, had certainly killed a whole lot of people, fighting as a Cimmerian.  He hadn't yet traveled the world, served as or commanded either Pirates or Free Companions, so while extremely dangerous he was still, as Ned Two-Trees would say, "young and full of beans".  It's clear from that story, he was pretty sure he could take the guys in the house, even when he had the arbalest pointed at him - or at least kill enough to get away, relying on his speed and strength.  

Right. Which HP maps well enough. Conan knows that he has a chance, not necessarily a good chance, to take someone down due to his confidence in his own speed and skill. Which is totally different story from someone just standing there and letting they guy shoot them.

Quote from: estar;937103Exactly, I ran a GURPS campaign where everybody was a city guard. One the tools they adopted was a max strength crossbow they called a Knight Killer. Individually it was pretty hit or miss even with a 13 or 14 skill. However with five PCs lets loose a volley at the start of the round something went down and that enough to give them the edge on some tough foes.

I occasionally pair a high Dexterity marksman with a high Strength loader.  Those 18 ST crossbows are nasty.  If they ever hit at least.

Before GURPS 4e, average dodge with no encumbrance is 5. You can hit the dirt to get that up to 8, which is well below a 50% chance, and involves you hitting the dirt, making you vulnerable and needing to spend some turns standing up.

Moreover, it seems to me that the point that the crossbow was brought up for in this thread was to show that when you have more hitpoints than a weapon can do, that you can know you won't be taken out by that weapon (barring a GM ruling that would be acknowledging that the hitpoint system can't handle some situation well). The issue is the certainty that you can't be immediately taken out, when in the real situation, there would be some chance. It applies in general to any time where the HP of some character is larger than the max possible damage from attacks - you know you aren't going to be taken out right away. If that represents rest, mental resources, luck, or something, that's a bit surreal because those things don't really get used up the way hitpoints do. But many players really hate having a risk of "getting one-shotted" and/or want to be able to manage risk of defeat as a resource that way, and/or are just used to all the piles of games that do use hitpoint systems to pad the effects of attacks. It is a clear trade-off that sacrifices some realism, though.

In GURPS, it's entirely possible that Conan, even though he's likely to shred foes left and right, might get hit by a single lucky attack and be taken out. Play is about moving and acting to minimize the risks.

Quote from: estar;937103with five PCs lets loose a volley at the start of the round something went down

And even if it didn't go down, it might suddenly recall an urgent appointment elsewhere.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;937155And even if it didn't go down, it might suddenly recall an urgent appointment elsewhere.

Like at the surgeon's.

Quote from: Skarg;937135Before GURPS 4e, average dodge with no encumbrance is 5. You can hit the dirt to get that up to 8, which is well below a 50% chance, and involves you hitting the dirt, making you vulnerable and needing to spend some turns standing up.

In earlier editions, a small shield or leather torso armor makes your dodge 7 which goes up to ten.  A medium shield and mail brings your dodge up to 11 and Conan has the Strength needed to remain unencumbered doing so even with his bastard sword in one hand.

I know the flat +3 in fourth edition defenses can seem a bit high but it's less stackable than the first to third edition Passive Defense.

That being said, if you want to speed up GURPS 4e and make it deadlier, stripping that +3 is a good way to do it and probably more realistic.

Personally, I wish they'd made the all out attack with missile weapons +4 instead of +1 as that would cancel out the punitive range penalties and no dodge against bullets is much more realistic than any dodge at all.  It makes getting under cover and shooting from cover the winning strategies they should be.