Quote from: Exploderwizard;936153GURPS does a pretty good job at moderate point totals if you avoid the cinematic rules and use the bleeding rules.

Well, if you do that and aren't bothered by armour of TL3 being underrated in comparison to melee weapons:). But other than that little nitpick, I agree.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;936129This. Oh, so very much this.

One of the problems with the a couple of Top Secret modules - Operation: Rapidstrike and Lady in Distress - is that they are commando missions in a system that makes gunfights potentially very deadly. Later modules reward stealth and guile, which is something the system rewards as well through the Contact rules.

And Top Secret's combat system borrows heavily from 2e Boot Hill. You get into too many gunfights in rapid succession after suffering even a light wound in a BH fight and your character's chance of getting killed go up, a little at first, then a lot. Losing a single Strength point reduces your character's Speed and Accuracy; lose 50% or more of your Strength, and both Speed and Accuracy drop precipitously. And the kicker is that healing takes weeks, so you're carrying those penalties for a long time if the wound comes from a bullet or blade. It means you think strategically about the risks you're willing to take.

My character's fucked this up a couple of times. In the first, Eladio was both drunk and wounded when he was dry-gulched by a 'friend' and the only thing that saved his ass was that two of Bad-nose Bannerman's shots missed and the third resulted in a light wound of his off-arm. Only one of Eladio's return shots hit, but it caught the killer between the eyes and ended the fight. In the second, he suffered two light stab wounds - that still take three weeks to heal - and while he's recovering decides to show how tough he is by breaking mustangs. After getting thrown a couple of times and taking brawling damage - which heals in hours with rest that Eladio didn't take - he runs into Shotgun Sally, a rustler and outlaw whom Eladio had shot in a previous encounter. Eladio's well below half his hit points - some from the stab wounds, the rest from getting thrown - and Sally can blast his ass before he ever gets his Shopkeeper clear of his shoulder holster, but though he shot her once before, Eladio also spared her and a friend when he could've killed them both, so he gets a reaction roll bonus, and what coulda turned into a fatal case of lead poisoning for my character instead resulted in a short and slightly tense conversation between the two as she smoked her cigarette.

Persistent wounds and death spirals make you think twice about choosing the ground on which you're willing to fight. In Boot Hill, it's the unwritten rule which influences in- and out-of-character behavior: it rewards lying low, gathering intelligence, which in turn moderates the pace of the game such that campaign turns become significant.

It was logic such as this that lead me to declare all systems that didn't feature persistent wounds and death spirals as unfit for roleplayers, about a decade ago:D. GURPS and TRoS made quite the impact after being introduced to some players who had only played D&D-alikes, and didn't expect that a single impact might lead to a broken hip.
(I still agree with the logic these days, but I don't think other systems are less worthy for choosing a different approach).
Luckily, at least some of my players are rather good at the lying low part, and they tend to draw the others with them;).

Quote from: Krimson;936089That said I could totally write a damage subsystem to cover Ulcerative Colitis which could work for Crohn's in a pinch.

I could write one for Infectious Colitis! We should compare notes one day!

Mine's more... "your booty just exploded, Breath save vs. suffering + damage. You temporarily lose CON and now have to take a System Shock roll."

Yup, you can poop yourself to death!

Quote from: Daztur;936146To go off on a tangent, what version of Traveler would people recommend? Haven't done much with it besides make some characters with Mongoose Traveler...

This could be a thread all on its own. There are many editions, each with its own answer to what different kinds of players want. How general should skills be; how many is too many skills? Should armor reduce the chance of an effective hit; or should it reduce damage once hit? What is the role of the Referee? And countless other questions. So many, that to get into any detail on this thread would be foolish.

I would add that even within Classic Traveller there are differences. One can happily and successfully play with only Books 1-3 (the game was designed to played this way). And then there is eight years worth of published material for the Classic Traveller line that in the view of some fulfills Classic Traveller and makes it was it was always meant to be, and in the view of others is extraneous and gets in the way of the game.

I will say this, however, about Classic Traveller, because it is very distinct from all the other versions.

It's the edition I like. (The rules I described upthread are from Classic Traveller.) In particular, I like using only Traveller Books 1-3. (I have been writing posts about the value of only using Books 1-3.)

The reason I love them is because they are a product of their time: a SF response to Original Dungeons & Dragons. They are loose, with a few specific mechanics, with the understanding the Players will be trying many things beyond the scope of the rules. The Referee is there as a REFEREE, carrying the same responsibilities and ethos as a Referee impartially managing a conflict at a miniature war games table. He adjudicates the results of the PCs actions and the NPC/World either with his own judgement, or if uncertain of the outcome, the indifferent throw of 2D6. It's all very Player Skill, Not Character Abilities, and so on.

There really isn't a skill system, though it trick people into thinking there is one. Instead, there is this:
The Referee generate a number to be equalled on 2D6 and -/+DMs can be applied, ranging from skills, to especially high or low characteristics, circumstances of environment, tools available, previous character experiences, and whatever else the Referee and the Players think best.

For people who want a consistent system that drains as much Referee judgement out of the possible, it's a broken nightmare. For those who love the possibilities of what RPGs were like in the mid-70s, its awesome.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;936072I'd venture a guess that that's largely because most players don't like the idea of the dice making the decision for them about whether they should keep fighting or not, which is basically what morale rules that affect individual PCs boil down to.

I figure that they work well for NPCs/monsters etc.  They just shouldn't apply to PCs in most games, anymore than most systems allow diplomacy or persuasion skills to have their normal effects against PCs.

Another thing most games don't seem to deal with well is the way wounds evolve over time. A wound that fails to immediately incapacitate you can easily go almost unnoticed for several minutes or more; shock sets in some time after injury; effects of blood loss and swelling don't really kick in for tens of minutes or hours (unless a wound is catastrophic). I can't think off-hand of any game that has wounds evolve in this way. You could say there is no reason to do this because it wouldn't be fun, but there are so many hundreds of games with so many different styles of play, you'd think there would be somewhere in that vast ecosystem for this sort of realism.

Quote from: Opaopajr;936164I could write one for Infectious Colitis! We should compare notes one day!

Mine's more... "your booty just exploded, Breath save vs. suffering + damage. You temporarily lose CON and now have to take a System Shock roll."

Yup, you can poop yourself to death!

"It looks like you made your death saving throw and still have enough blood left in your body. The cleric attempts to insert an IV dock. Rolling perception to she if she can find a vein. Oooh... A bit of trouble. No worries she can try again. Roll d10 to see how many times it takes to find a vein. You are unable to take in any food or water for the next 2d4 days. Roll a diplomacy check to see if you can convince the guard... er... orderly to sneak you some ice cubes..."

Quote from: Opaopajr;936164I could write one for Infectious Colitis! We should compare notes one day!

Mine's more... "your booty just exploded, Breath save vs. suffering + damage. You temporarily lose CON and now have to take a System Shock roll."

Yup, you can poop yourself to death!

COLITIS: THE SHITTING

Coming Summer 2017 from White Wolf

Quote from: Larsdangly;936173Another thing most games don't seem to deal with well is the way wounds evolve over time. A wound that fails to immediately incapacitate you can easily go almost unnoticed for several minutes or more; shock sets in some time after injury; effects of blood loss and swelling don't really kick in for tens of minutes or hours (unless a wound is catastrophic). I can't think off-hand of any game that has wounds evolve in this way. You could say there is no reason to do this because it wouldn't be fun, but there are so many hundreds of games with so many different styles of play, you'd think there would be somewhere in that vast ecosystem for this sort of realism.

For what its worth, King Arthur Pendragon does have rules that touch on what you're talking about, though perhaps not precisely. (Like most rules they are a form of abstraction and could be interpreted in much the way you are describing.)

Minor Wounds, if they are not taken care of properly can fester. Each wound (tracked separately during combat) needs its own attention and can cause its own problems Here's a sample from the rules:

QuoteDETERIORATION AND AGGRAVATION
Injuries or illnesses may grow worse over time rather
than better. If a character undertakes activity enough to
interfere with healing, or if he is not tended properly, then
he may take further hit point damage. This may be due to
blood loss, dehydration, infection, further illness, and more.
The damage from deterioration and aggravation indicates
the effects of all these factors.

Due to damage caused by deterioration and aggravation,
the final result of a week’s cycle of rest and activity
(see “Natural Healing”) may be rendered nil, or even a loss
of hit points. Chirurgery can stave off deterioration, but
only adequate bed rest can save an overly active character
from aggravating his illness or injuries.

There's more...

Quote from: rgrove0172;935964Now some will say trauma is just, well too deadly for fun games.

Not just that it's deadly, but that if you survive there are often long-term consequences. "I used to be an adventurer until I took an arrow in the knee," and all that. Nobody wants to roleplay 18 months of rehab.

Quotethe conventional HP being the absolute worst [...] trauma tends to lean towards the extremes. Meaning - when one is exposed to trauma, be it penetrating, blunt force or whatever.. the effects are typically very minor (scrapes, grazes, superficial cuts, bruising etc.) or pretty damned serious (hemorrhage, broken bones, internal injury and so on) rarely is it in the middle.

What you've posted is actually an argument for conventional D&D hit points, though without levelling. You're either fine and running around as actively as you choose - have at least 1HP - or you're down - 0 or less HP.

Quote from: XantherThe problem with more realistic damage systems is they are realistic. That is in real life you get hit once with a sword and that is basically it, it's a death spiral from there if you are facing someone uninjured without a sword.

Without the trouble of realism, you can get a similar effect from a simple HP system where levelling up in HP is limited. That's if you imagine HP as just damage absorbing potential, though I tend to think of it as abstracting parries and fatigue and the like.

Quote from: Chris24601;936109One thing that I find can help avoid the Hit Points = Meat Points syndrome is to use some clearer terms. You SPEND hit points to avoid serious damage. You REGAIN hit points with rest/inspiration/etc.

This is brilliant.

"He hits you. You die unless you spend..." DM rolls dice, "5 hit points." You are not suffering damage, you are spending fatigue and parries and so on.

Quote from: Larsdangly;936173Another thing most games don't seem to deal with well is the way wounds evolve over time. A wound that fails to immediately incapacitate you can easily go almost unnoticed for several minutes or more; shock sets in some time after injury; effects of blood loss and swelling don't really kick in for tens of minutes or hours (unless a wound is catastrophic). I can't think off-hand of any game that has wounds evolve in this way. You could say there is no reason to do this because it wouldn't be fun, but there are so many hundreds of games with so many different styles of play, you'd think there would be somewhere in that vast ecosystem for this sort of realism.

FFGS End of the World games model this in an abstractvway. You can essentially ignore wounds for a time until out of danger then they take effect once the adrenaline wears off. Odd thing is you get to kind of pick what you want to suffer from. Maybe it was the fall from that window that hurt your knee, or that guy at the bar landed a good one on your jaw you will be feeling for a week. Its a peculiar system but a good fit for the rest of the games mechanics.

Quote from: Tod13;936052It is pretty detailed--everything in that example, as far as I can recall is real. And the example is simplified. When I first read Phoenix Command decades ago, I thought it would be awesome for a combat simulation computer program, because that's the only way to make it work "real-time". A tablet app would be awesome for it.

I love Phoenix Command!

Any game where you can do 2.5 million points of damage by shooting someone through the eye is fucking hilarious!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;936179...
Without the trouble of realism, you can get a similar effect from a simple HP system where levelling up in HP is limited. That's if you imagine HP as just damage absorbing potential, though I tend to think of it as abstracting parries and fatigue and the like.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly, but I think "realistic damage" is one of the five stages of role-play, kind of like the five stages of grieving.   More power to someone if they want to try their hand at it.  I never found it worth the effort, as a player it sucks as there is usually more stuff trying to hit you, as a GM tracking damage effects for a dozen creatures or more, sheer nightmare.  I use HP, I actually have something called critical HP (CHP).  The CHP is the "real damage" the HP all the other abstraction.

I will admit I didn't read all the posts in here, so if I repeat I am sorry.  

218 Games! uses an Armor Rate that is taken away before damage, and a chance to use a secondary attack to dodge.  
The weapons also increase in damage with progressive rolls:
Roll a 1 (critical success) and you can roll again to double damage.
Most weapons have a limit of three increases with successes, but have a one shot kill at three Critical Success rolls.
Firearms can continue to increase damage to the target without limit, but also be used for one shot kills instead.
This gives our Characters a chance to deal serious damage with one strike.

We assume a low damage hit that is soaked by HP is the combination of a badly placed hit, and the skill of the target to dodge enough to lessen the effect.

A system sufficient to satisfactorily model injury and damage as it really is is also a system better done as a videogame or a tabletop assistant application, which is yet another reason for why you don't see them much in tabletop RPGs.