As I've noted in simmilar threads. People like to forget that in D&D recovery from wounds used to take weeks.

In BX it was 1d3 per day.
In AD&D it was 1 HP per day and characters with CON bonus didnt get to add that bonus till the second week. After a month they healed up fully. And if brought to zero HP you were totally out of it for 1d6 turns and were bedridden for a week even with magical healing. Going to -6 meant some disfigurement or other lasting injury was sustained.

Good point, Omega. This is in great contrast to the 3.5 I've been playing... 1/day normally, 2/day in good conditions, plus Con bonus each day...

I believe Rolemaster was aiming at something similar to what the OP describes. Their combat tables make hit points a relatively minor issue, but the crits and bleeding can really make life miserable.

Sure, Trond. Plus they were always entertaining.

But if we forget the numbers and look at the effects - how the characters would see it. Our OP said what he saw as a paramedic is,

1. people are either fucked, or okay, not much in between
2. once fucked, if saved they take some time to recover.

Having hit points with random damage, but you're running around as much as you like until you hit 0HP, at which point you're down and will take 1-4 weeks to recover... this simulates what he said pretty well.

Where it falls apart is with level-ascending AC; we don't find that an infantry company's sergeant major can take more bullets or is less likely to be hit than a newbie private. Maybe a bit tougher and harder to hit, but not like 2-8 times harder (assuming 2-8 levels with thus 2-8 times as many hit points).

Forget the numbers and look at how the characters would see it. And then it's actually not too bad.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;936397Where it falls apart is with level-ascending AC; we don't find that an infantry company's sergeant major can take more bullets or is less likely to be hit than a newbie private. Maybe a bit tougher and harder to hit, but not like 2-8 times harder (assuming 2-8 levels with thus 2-8 times as many hit points).

Forget the numbers and look at how the characters would see it. And then it's actually not too bad.

Though a seasoned veteran might know when to duck or what cover to get to better. This has actually been noted in modern warfare. And its true in other venues too. The experienced swordsman will know how to block and dodge better than someone new to it and they may well be able to predict your moves.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936375It was shortly before Gary's death, and Rob Kuntz' Pied Piper forums crashed and died, alas, alas, alas.

These were convention games; Gary would go to a con to "run old style Greyhawk" and watch players run into the teeth of death.  He said he was amazed at how often it happened in so many different places.

Well, henchmen cost money. PCs come free;).
(Or I like to joke that that's the logic behind such behaviour. Never was able to really grasp it).
Actually, I've been told by people, including one (computer) game designer, that if you can reach a fight, it should be balanced in a way that allows them to take on it and win:). This is actually what prompted my "pre-campaign speeches". I want it to be clear that my game doesn't work on computer game logic.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936377Not surprised; I think you were doing Blackmoor with him in the middle 1970s, and we were doing it when our Tekumel PCs went there in Phil's campaign in the early 1980s and Dave took over the GM seat for about six months.

I think the difference was in how Dave perceived our play style; he'd been gaming with us as Capt. Harchar for almost two years, and I have a feeling that he was trying to prove to Phil that he was just as good a GM as Phil was. Just a supposition, knowing the two of them...

I have an impression that such friendly rivalry is almost always to the benefit of the players, if not always to the benefit of the PCs:D!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;936397Sure, Trond. Plus they were always entertaining.

But if we forget the numbers and look at the effects - how the characters would see it. Our OP said what he saw as a paramedic is,

1. people are either fucked, or okay, not much in between
2. once fucked, if saved they take some time to recover.

Having hit points with random damage, but you're running around as much as you like until you hit 0HP, at which point you're down and will take 1-4 weeks to recover... this simulates what he said pretty well.

Where it falls apart is with level-ascending AC; we don't find that an infantry company's sergeant major can take more bullets or is less likely to be hit than a newbie private. Maybe a bit tougher and harder to hit, but not like 2-8 times harder (assuming 2-8 levels with thus 2-8 times as many hit points).

Forget the numbers and look at how the characters would see it. And then it's actually not too bad.

Do you mean "level-ascending HP"?

Quote from: Trond;936396I believe Rolemaster was aiming at something similar to what the OP describes. Their combat tables make hit points a relatively minor issue, but the crits and bleeding can really make life miserable.

Rolemaster modelled a different perspective than the OP's point. My interpretation of the OP is that minor injuries by themselves have little effect on their own but together they can add up to a big effect. Anything serious enough to have a big effect on it's own is probably serious enough to be debilitating. E.g.

Quote from: rgrove0172;935964A patient of mine fell down a hill through a mesquite thicket. (think thorns) He was essentially uninjured except for dozens of superficial but painful lacerations and punctures. He was a mess, could barely stand, shock had him shaking like it was freezing outside and he could barely answer questions. This all without a major injury anywhere or a significant loss of blood. In most games we would have handed him a couple HP and played on.

In contrast minor injuries in Rolemaster (hp loss) have no effect at all until 0hp, and you can collect major injuries left right and centre with only getting stun x rnds / lose hp / bleed hp results. Looking at the tables the "you die" or "you are completely incapacitated" results make up only a small proportion. Incapacitation seems to mostly result from hp loss or blood loss per round reducing you to 0hp.

It actually does fit well, except for healing.  

The n00b with 4pts Meat, 4pts Endurance/Skill gets reduced to 2pts Meat, he's up tomorrow.  

The veteran with 4pts Meat, 84pts Endurance/Skill get reduced to 2pts Meat, he'll be up after the next harvest.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;9363971. people are either fucked, or okay

Those would be great status effects for a game:)

Quote from: JoeNuttall;936428Rolemaster modelled a different perspective than the OP's point. My interpretation of the OP is that minor injuries by themselves have little effect on their own but together they can add up to a big effect. Anything serious enough to have a big effect on it's own is probably serious enough to be debilitating. E.g.

In contrast minor injuries in Rolemaster (hp loss) have no effect at all until 0hp, and you can collect major injuries left right and centre with only getting stun x rnds / lose hp / bleed hp results. Looking at the tables the "you die" or "you are completely incapacitated" results make up only a small proportion. Incapacitation seems to mostly result from hp loss or blood loss per round reducing you to 0hp.

I'm not sure about RM 2 but RMSS gives -10 for every 25% of your hp taken.

Hackmaster 5th goes for the more "realistic" damage thing if I recall right.  I no longer have the books, but I think each wound was tracked individually when it cam to healing.  HM5 had penetrating dice- their name for exploding dice.  My memory of it is so fuzzy I don't want to go much further, but if anyone here has experience with it, chime in.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936176COLITIS: THE SHITTING

Coming Summer 2017 from White Wolf

Sounds like a great match for the collaborative storygaming genre, stuffed full of player agency.
Maybe someone will start a LARP club for it in Germany.

Quote from: AsenRG;936217... The best part? Those wounds can and will incapacitate you. Bleeding to death slowly on a deserted street is totally an option:D.

And there should be such a rule in GURPS and Warhammer;). ...

There is in GURPS, starting with the bleeding and disease rules. Season to taste.

This is my chart for Mythras' (RuneQuest 6) injuries:



Mythras *is* hit point based, but per body location and each location has fairly low points. Any worn armour subtracts from damage. It's not necessarily a super-realistic system when it come to the details of wounds but it has a pretty good "feel" in play that you're getting something approaching realism, not just for wounds but the feel of combat as a whole.

To the OPs point - I suspect some of the assumptions about wounding are in some way influenced by *modern* combat with the effects of supersonic bullets, which have different effects than slower moving ancient weapons, this is where the "all or nothing" properties of wounds might in part come from. The other thing to consider is for the most part the game systems are emulating *fiction* not necessarily reality which is a bit different from the "it's just a game" get-out clause - the fiction might actually be close to "real" combat, wounds, etc. but nevertheless there's a lot of dramatic licence, so the games (especially something like RQ/Mythras) are going after the fiction more than 'reality' even if the fiction is gritty low fantasy in the style of Joe Abercrombie, or Robert Howard etc.

Quote from: Bilharzia;936451The other thing to consider is for the most part the game systems are emulating *fiction* not necessarily reality which is a bit different from the "it's just a game" get-out clause - the fiction might actually be close to "real" combat, wounds, etc. but nevertheless there's a lot of dramatic licence, so the games (especially something like RQ/Mythras) are going after the fiction more than 'reality' even if the fiction is gritty low fantasy in the style of Joe Abercrombie, or Robert Howard etc.

Well, the thing to remember is Pete is a fairly serious reenactor from what I understand, and while I don't know how deep he is into ARMA, HEMA, studying fechtbuchs, etc, he's out there wearing armor, wielding weapons and getting bruised and bloodied, so I don't know that it's entirely accurate to say that the combat system is modeled on fiction as opposed to reality.  The combat special effect system in particular seems designed to model his real experiences with the weapons rather than Mongoose's Feats like "Pantherish Twist" etc which were an attempt to model the fiction of Howard and the pastiches.