I own a copy of True20 and I quite like it.  I've even pimped it a bit.  But my gaming circles basically fall into two distinct groups - those that won't touch any d20 product, and those that play D&D exclusively.  So True20 sits on my shelf, unplayed.

Quote from: James McMurraySounds like they need better advertising then.

Eh, guess it's relative. It worked on me.

Part of their distro problem was that scandal thing they had with a company who's name escapes me. If I remember correctly, part of the deal had been to get the games into larger and better known outlets. I could be remembering incorrectly though, my 20 month old is severely reducing my sleep time at night.

It's definitely relative. It's onna them opinion thingies.

As far as I'm concerned though, they've got really good anti-advertising, since I've never heard of any scandals either.

I'm surprised, cuz we even talked about here some
 at the time.

Is True20 really 'not popular'?
:confused:
 It seems to be doing reasonably well for GR, since they seem to keep releasing stuff for it (as well as other companies, e.g. Hinterwelt right here).

I agree that it needs a good, solid setting -- but the updated version of Freeport should provide that (at least for fantasy games).

(Releasing True20 versions of the 'Black Company' and 'Thieves World' would also be a good move IMO, but I don't know if GR have the rights to do that.)

Along with C&C and Conan, True20 is one of the 'big' non-WotC OGL games.  At least as far as I can tell.

Quote from: AkrasiaIs True20 really 'not popular'?
:confused:
 It seems to be doing reasonably well for GR, since they seem to keep releasing stuff for it (as well as other companies, e.g. Hinterwelt right here).

I agree that it needs a good, solid setting -- but the updated version of Freeport should provide that (at least for fantasy games).

(Releasing True20 versions of the 'Black Company' and 'Thieves World' would also be a good move IMO, but I don't know if GR have the rights to do that.)

Along with C&C and Conan, True20 is one of the 'big' non-WotC OGL games.  At least as far as I can tell.

It's a matter of semantics. It's nowhere near as popular as D&D, Star Wars, D20 Modern, Warhammer FRP, any White Wolf game, Monte Cooks stuff, Green Ronin's own Mutants and Masterminds, GURPS, HERO, and a number of other games.

I don't doubt that it is reasonably profitable for Green Ronin, but I was surprised that it didn't turn out to be more popular than it is. It specifically tried to address a lot of the problems that people had with the D&D system, yet it didn't have that many converts.

When it came out, I thought it would be a good D20 system to run a Lord of the Rings game, giving an open-ended approach to character generation that would fit the setting better than D&D. I couldn't generate enough interest amongst my players to check out the system so that idea fizzled.

Next I thought I'd run a modern/urban fantasy game, and picked up the Worlds of Adventure book, hoping to use some of the stuff from the modern setting in that book. WoA was extremely disappointing, with (unsurprisingly) the same lackluster setting quality as the core book. Again, I couldn't drum up any interest from my players, who all gladly agreed to play the genre using D20 modern.

At this point, with the new Star Wars edition out, I'm hoping to see a revised D20 Modern using the simpler ruleset, which I'm fairly sure will provide a decent modern day/futuristic D20 game, and which won't be such a hard sell to my players.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkI own a copy of True20 and I quite like it.  I've even pimped it a bit.  But my gaming circles basically fall into two distinct groups - those that won't touch any d20 product, and those that play D&D exclusively.  So True20 sits on my shelf, unplayed.

That's an interesting point. I've got two somewhat separate groups of players, or at least a large group who can be broken into two categories: Those that refuse to play anything d20, and those who only play d20.

Of those that play d20, they're likely to stick to the big franchises like D&D or Star Wars. This group of d20 lovers is a bit peculiar. They won't play Arcana Unearthed because they would rather just play D&D. They run and play a lot of D20 modern stuff for generic sci fi (and used it to run a Starship troopers type of game, even though there is a ST game out there). Some of them recently started up a Stargate SG1 game, and are using the now OOP AEG Stargate rules. Why they went out and bought new (used) rules for this game instead of using D20 modern is beyond me, given the fact that they used D20 Modern to run other franchises.

One last though occurred to me. What about D20 Modern? How does it's popularity compare and relate to True20.

I think it is safe to say that D20M sold a lot more copies than True20. Both are generic systems. Does D20 Modern nullify the maxim that settingless games don't sell.

Did D20 Modern achieved what success it did solely on the coattails of D&D, or was it a superior product to True20?

I think part of D20M's success was due to brand recognition. A large part was due to the fact that it was a solid product - well edited, high production values, using a proven system with a few clever innovations (generic classes).

While popular, I don't think D20 modern ever lived up to WotC's expectations, not due to a lack of quality, but more due to the fact that it was a (mostly) settingless book, and that the modern genre isn't all that popular.

Comparing True20 to D20 modern, I think D20 Modern's widespread availability, coupled with WotC's brand recognition and production quality, made it a better choice for many consumers interested in a generic D20 system.

Quote from: GoOrangeWhile popular, I don't think D20 modern ever lived up to WotC's expectations, not due to a lack of quality, but more due to the fact that it was a (mostly) settingless book, and that the modern genre isn't all that popular.

As is usually the case with "other games by the publisher of D&D", I suspect that by any other company's balance sheet, D20 Modern would be a strong seller, but pales next to the flagship.

Word also has it that lack of support for D20 Modern by WotC was in part prompted by re-directing effort at the Star Wars RPG license.


In some online circles I'm in, it definitely seems like the shine has come off of D20 Modern. But that said, I was surprised to see how many D20 Modern based games -- official and unofficial -- were available at GenCon.

Quote from: GoOrangeOf those that play d20, they're likely to stick to the big franchises like D&D or Star Wars. This group of d20 lovers is a bit peculiar. They won't play Arcana Unearthed because they would rather just play D&D. They run and play a lot of D20 modern stuff for generic sci fi (and used it to run a Starship troopers type of game, even though there is a ST game out there). Some of them recently started up a Stargate SG1 game, and are using the now OOP AEG Stargate rules. Why they went out and bought new (used) rules for this game instead of using D20 modern is beyond me, given the fact that they used D20 Modern to run other franchises.

In my old D&D group, the DM owns pretty much every major D&D product and a pretty big swag of non-D&D, d20 products (including True20).  But in the 7+ years that I've known him, he has never run anything other than vanilla D&D set in his gonzo homebrew campaign world.  In fact, I believe he's been running the same campaign and same campaign world for more than 15-20 years.  Over the years, his expenditure of RPG books would be in the thousands and thousands of dollars.
 
The players are mostly casual gamers.  They're dedicated enough to turn up to most sessions, do their best to create interesting characters and occasionally write a short character background.  Most (though not all) of them own a copy of the PHB.  Of those that own the PHB, it is their only RPG book.  I don't think they care what they play, as long as it's D&D.  You could play Castles and Crusades, Hackmaster, Basic D&D, AD&D 1st or 2nd edition, and it probably wouldn't make much difference.  And you could almost certainly play True20 and simply call it "D&D" and they wouldn't care.... as long as there was dungeons to explore, orcs and goblins to defeat and treasure to pillage.
 
So why would a group like this ever consider making a switch?  The flexibility of the system is meaningless to all parties involved (since they play the same campaign, always).  And the elegance of the system is lost on the players, who basically roll the dice when they are told.  The only benefit would be to the DM who, theoretically, would have his workload reduced by using a more streamlined system.  But by sticking to vanilla D&D, he has at his disposal a wealth of official supplements and more fan-made material than you can poke a stick at.
 
In my experience, this is a pretty common style of group.  And that is why True20 isn't more popular.

Quote from: GoOrangeIt's a matter of semantics. It's nowhere near as popular as D&D, Star Wars, D20 Modern, Warhammer FRP, any White Wolf game, Monte Cooks stuff, Green Ronin's own Mutants and Masterminds, GURPS, HERO, and a number of other games.

I don't doubt that it is reasonably profitable for Green Ronin, but I was surprised that it didn't turn out to be more popular than it is. It specifically tried to address a lot of the problems that people had with the D&D system, yet it didn't have that many converts.

I'm not surprised.  When's the last time a Dungeons & Dragons replacement that wasn't called "Dungeons & Dragons" achieved any level of popularity in the RPG world?

Lets see... According to RPGnow True20 is selling phenominally as a PDF. (Something like their 6th best selling PDF of all time and their best selling non-d20 PDF of all time)

Here is waht amazon has to say:

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #36,787 in Books (WFRP)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #54,561 in Books (Mutants and Masterminds)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #80,076 in Books (Castles and Crusades 2nd printing)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #83,624 in Books (True20 Companion)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #127,289 in Books (GURPS 4th)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #184,756 in Books (Hackmaster)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #193,658 in Books (Runequest)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #289,571 in Books (Iron Heroes)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #290,073 in Books (Rifts Ultimate Edition)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #290,097 in Books (Savage Worlds)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #291,959 in Books (Spycraft)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #340,684 in Books (Castles and Crusades 3rd printing)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #402,141 in Books (CoC d20)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #403,145 in Books (True20 Core)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #442,867 in Books (Conan d20)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #556,775 in Books (HERO 5th revised)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #771,607 in Books (Grim Tales)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #941,225 in Books (Tri Stat)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #991,796 in Books (Omni System)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,257,849 in Books (d6 Fantasy)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,587,920 in Books (d6)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,867,807 in Books (Gygax's Lejendary Adventures)


So...

Overall I'd have to say True20 is doing pretty well based on what data I have available. No it isn't about to out-sell D&D or D20 modern, but that shouldn't be news to anyone.

You can decide for yourself if True20 is "unpopular" but I think the facts speak for themselves.

Quote from: ConanMKLets see... According to RPGnow True20 is selling phenominally as a PDF. (Something like their 6th best selling PDF of all time and their best selling non-d20 PDF of all time)

Here is waht amazon has to say:

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #36,787 in Books (WFRP)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #54,561 in Books (Mutants and Masterminds)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #80,076 in Books (Castles and Crusades 2nd printing)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #83,624 in Books (True20 Companion)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #127,289 in Books (GURPS 4th)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #184,756 in Books (Hackmaster)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #193,658 in Books (Runequest)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #289,571 in Books (Iron Heroes)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #290,073 in Books (Rifts Ultimate Edition)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #290,097 in Books (Savage Worlds)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #291,959 in Books (Spycraft)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #340,684 in Books (Castles and Crusades 3rd printing)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #402,141 in Books (CoC d20)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #403,145 in Books (True20 Core)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #442,867 in Books (Conan d20)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #556,775 in Books (HERO 5th revised)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #771,607 in Books (Grim Tales)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #941,225 in Books (Tri Stat)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #991,796 in Books (Omni System)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,257,849 in Books (d6 Fantasy)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,587,920 in Books (d6)

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,867,807 in Books (Gygax's Lejendary Adventures)


So...

Overall I'd have to say True20 is doing pretty well based on what data I have available. No it isn't about to out-sell D&D or D20 modern, but that shouldn't be news to anyone.

You can decide for yourself if True20 is "unpopular" but I think the facts speak for themselves.

Well, sales can represent a certain level of "success"...but I think with a RPG, "popularity" is based more on how many people are actually playing it.

WFRP 1st edition had "relatively" crappy sales (from what we've heard)...but many many people who got it loved it and played it with a passion.  I'd call that popular.

I think lots of RPGs have satisfactory sales, especially compared to those of the days of yore...but the fact that people aren't (in mass) playing them is the key when using the word "popular" IMHO.

When I go to a Con and see 500 D&D events, 500 CoC events, 100 D20 Modern events, and 1 True20 event (Disclaimer:  numbers are totally fictitious), I can tell what is popular.

Just saying (MHO)

Quote from: grubmanWhen I go to a Con and see 500 D&D events, 500 CoC events, 100 D20 Modern events, and 1 True20 event (Disclaimer:  numbers are totally fictitious), I can tell what is popular.

Just saying (MHO)

You realize you are comparing True20 to the 3 most popular games out there (possibly barring WoD).

I agree that number of people playing a game is also a form of "success" but I have no statistics of that kind. If you can provide any statistics like that I would like to see them. Telling me that more people play D&D, D20 Modern and CoC is merely stating the obvious.

Quote from: ConanMKYou can decide for yourself if True20 is "unpopular" but I think the facts speak for themselves.

"Why isn't True20 More Popular?" was the opening line. I don't think I said it was unpopular. Others may have used it, and that could be why you chose to quote the word unpopular, but I don't recall using it in my comments. I think a sound argument could be made that True20 is popular, but I still wonder why not more so.

There's a fine distinction there, but an important one. Irregardless of how popular it actually is, I was wondering why it wasn't more popular.

The sales figures for Amazon and RPGnow, while technically factual, present a skewed analysis. The numbers are interesting, but they aren't telling the whole tale. A great many of the games competitors aren't on RPGnow, which kind of makes the figures moot.

Certain game companies like HERO do a majority of their business from their online store (and have specifically requested that their fans buy product direct rather than through Amazon or a FLGS). Games sold in major chains like Barnes and Noble almost certainly are selling more copies than the Amazon figures indicate. Unfortunately, we usually never get to see actual sales figures from the publishers themselves.

Again, I'm not trying to make a case that True20 is "unpopular" as you've sad, just tossing about ideas as to why it wasn't a bigger hit.