Quote from: GoOrangeWhy isn't True20 More Popular?

 My D20 gaming group never heard of it, and expressed no interest in it. They play Star Wars, D&D 3.5, D20 Modern, Stargate, and even came up with their own D20 LotR game. Yet they won't do True20.

All of my friends in the group are computer savvy, and aren't strangers to internet forums. I don't think they hit up any gaming forums other than the WotC site. All of their games are either purchased at Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com. One guy does go to Gen Con every year. In some ways they're isolated from the rest of the gaming community and some ways they aren't.

Your friends are entierly typical of the vast majority of RPG players out there.

They are not isolated at all from the "gaming community" if they only go to the WOTC boards.

They are simply not aware of the small isolated fringe groups out there that you find on rpg.net and the rpgsite.com, etc.

Quote from: GoOrangeD&D players won't use it because...I don't know...because D&D is good enough?

  YES.


.

It isn't popular with my group because none of us ever bought and probably never will. A few reasons I can think of off the top of my head:

1) You can't play a generic system. It has to have some sort of setting attached.

2) We already play d20 games and know the system, why stress out trying to learn something that seems like it's just like it but a little different?

3) We're not big on derivative systems. True20 isn't d20 but sounds like it is hugely based on it.

4) It sounds pretentious and stuck on itself. "True20" sounds like it thinks it's the One True Way. That sort of marketing strategy turns me off instantly.

5) No advertising. I hear people mention it (some good, some bad) but I've never seen it in a store. I don't browse through online stores looking for new games, so if they want it to reach me it has to be on the sheld of my FLGS.

Quote from: James McMurray1) You can't play a generic system. It has to have some sort of setting attached.

And yet, GURPS has remained commercially viable for years.

KoOS

Quote from: James McMurray4) It sounds pretentious and stuck on itself. "True20" sounds like it thinks it's the One True Way. That sort of marketing strategy turns me off instantly.

Just to set the record straight, the game is called "True20" because it only uses a d20. No d6s, d12s, etc.

Quote from: grubmanTrue, but I think the way they "improved" upon D20 are very different.  Saga took all the core concepts of standard D20 and worked them into something better while retaining them, while True20 simply took out core concepts (like ability scores, classes, HPs, ect.) and replaced them with new systems.

Of course, that's just the way I see it.

Agreed grubman.

Having "Classes" is not always a bad thing. They can help Player define their character faster and easier with Classes most of the time. You can break down most characters into a basic class in most games, even those games which lack classes.

Quote from: LacrioxusAgreed grunman.

Having "Classes" is not always a bad thing. They can help Player define their character faster and easier with Classes most of the time. You can break down most characters into a basic class in most games, even those games which lack classes.

Tangent:  I've always found "class hate" one of the most humorous RPG arguments.  People who profess to hate them do one of tow things.  Either they use skill/point buys systems to create the exact same type of archetype that they would have played if they chose a class...or they are the type of player who wants their character to be totally proficient in everything, which leads to a string of (Jack of all trades) characters that are even more similar than those created using classes.

Please don't flame me!

Well- as someone who has now written 4 True 20 books, I can say that our True 20 books sell fairly well. So from where I'm standing, it's pretty popular.

True 20 books continue to be viable for RPGO from a sales perspective.

Chuck

I've never heard of it.

I have enough problems with D&D , which is insanely cumbersome, lacks an intuitive rules set up as well as mind boggling lack of proper cross referencing. (Refer to X book with no page number, or finding that X book refers to something else is shat in my book.) So if True20 is like that, I'll pass.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolAnd yet, GURPS has remained commercially viable for years.

KoOS

GURPS has tons of settings. I bet very few people buy (compared to other games) the GURPs core generic rules and run with just those.

Quote from: SigmundJust to set the record straight, the game is called "True20" because it only uses a d20. No d6s, d12s, etc.

Sounds like they need better advertising then.

I think the points about it being generic and a watered-down version of D20 are valid. Plus, when I looked at picking up a copy, I had a hard time finding a copy on the shelves.

But I think the points about a lack of a setting the most valid. I wonder how much more popular the system might be with a tacked on setting (anything, from a setting ripped from outside sources to making the seemingly popular Calliphate Nights canon).

Quote from: James McMurrayGURPS has tons of settings. I bet very few people buy (compared to other games) the GURPs core generic rules and run with just those.

Now I'm gonna tangent:

I agree on GURPS settings, and that's why I think 4th edition hasn't come into its own yet.  I love 4th edition, and I think it's a great step forward, but I think they should kick some settings out.

Banestorm fuckin' ROCKS as a setting book, especially as a generic one.  I wish they'd put out more setting books like that!  I think it would boost sales, but who am I to guess?

Quote from: grubmanTangent:  I've always found "class hate" one of the most humorous RPG arguments.  People who profess to hate them do one of tow things.  Either they use skill/point buys systems to create the exact same type of archetype that they would have played if they chose a class...or they are the type of player who wants their character to be totally proficient in everything, which leads to a string of (Jack of all trades) characters that are even more similar than those created using classes.

Please don't flame me!

>Reed Richards<
Grubman, Your on Fire !
>/Reed Richards<

Your Right though grubman. My players do that all the time. They try to mix-match classes to be good at everything, and in systems like GURPS or Unisystem or whathaveyou, they ALWAYS make Jack-Of-All-Trades characters.

Problem I have with JoaT characters is simple. Let someone Else be upfront. Need someone to watch your back. No ? Then its pretty boring to be in a group game or to run that game.

I shit you not, When I see my players making Jack-Trades characters I do get bored. I want then to need to use TEAMWORK for once. When I do get them to make Non-Jack-Trade characters The game is FUN. Then later on with XP or whatever they try to sneak in Jack-Tading their character as they advance. Then I get bored. They get bored.

I have always disliked Characters who can do everything, even if they are low level in it. I like Specialized characters.

I bought it and read through it.  Nothing really sparked my imagination...  I thought it was pretty well-crafted, but nowadays I really wish I would have saved my $60 or whatever.

It just felt pretty ... "meh" to me.  I think it might play okay, but I'd kind of like some compelling setting in which to use it.  Frankly, I don't have time to do all the heavy lifting to create a setting & tweak a generic system to my purposes.

I thought Blue Rose was better made.

-O

Quote from: James McMurrayGURPS has tons of settings. I bet very few people buy (compared to other games) the GURPs core generic rules and run with just those.

Well by that standard, True20 has 4 settings and you don't even need to buy anything past the corebook to get them.

KoOS

Yet another reason for them to have better advertising, since nobody I game with knew that.