Why isn't True20 More Popular?

I picked it up when it was first released as a PDF, and thought it was pretty slick. I've never played it in all this time. My D20 gaming group never heard of it, and expressed no interest in it. They play Star Wars, D&D 3.5, D20 Modern, Stargate, and even came up with their own D20 LotR game. Yet they won't do True20.

All of my friends in the group are computer savvy, and aren't strangers to internet forums. I don't think they hit up any gaming forums other than the WotC site. All of their games are either purchased at Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com. One guy does go to Gen Con every year. In some ways they're isolated from the rest of the gaming community and some ways they aren't.

Which leads me to possible reason #1 - the game doesn't get enough exposure. If it's not being sold at major bookstore chains, a lot of people won't hear about it and check it out.

I really liked the more open ended aspects of character generation - without strict classes you could better design the character you wanted without restriction. Perhaps this is a turn off for people and just maybe the majority of gamers prefer the strict D&D classes? Is it too generic without enough defining flavor?

Personally, I thought the settings included in the back of the expanded version were pretty poor. I'd never run a game in one of those. A few chapters on genre specific rules would have been cool, but the settings provided were too brief to contain any substance and too uninspired.

I guess non-D20 gamers won't look at it because it's too similar to standard D&D, and D&D players won't use it because...I don't know...because D&D is good enough?

At this stage instead of using True20 for a generic game to run various different settings, I'd probably turn to Savage Worlds, or if I'm playing with my D20 die hards, it would be back to D20 modern.

I've picked up most of the other supplements for True20, and I want to like it and want to play it, but for some reason it just doesn't seem to be happening for me. It would help if others had more enthusiasm or were more open to try it, but it seems pretty low on most people's radar.

I guess this post turned into a bit of a True20 bash, but I didn't intend it to be. I'm just wondering if anyone else had similar opinions, or any thoughts on why the game hasn't moved up on the RPG popularity ladder.

The reasons that it wasn't more popular with me were twofold:

• First, its system of handling powers was a poorly thought-out fusion of the Black Company magic system and their M&M powers system. The result was a horribly unbalanced affair filled with a shitload of fiddly math that was subject to frequently change during actual play based upon the desired effect voiced by a player just prior to using a given power.



• Second, conversion from other d20 products was neither intuitive or well-explained. Indeed, the conversion appendix in the core True 20 rulebook proved so useless that it was itself appended in the True 20 Bestiary (which added actual rules for the "make it up" crap in the original conversion appendix). Blech.

If somebody fixed both of those things, it would probably be my d20/OGL variant of choice. As it stands, I much prefer Butch Curry's Core Elements (no surprise there, as I designed the original Core Elelments) and Malcolm Sheppard's Advanced Quick20 (quite a bit of a surprise there, as I intensely dislike the author).

It's simple. True20 isn't popular because generic rules aren't popular. (Popular as in, popular in the real world as opposed to the infraweb.)

Reason: generic rules for a roleplaying game aren't a roleplaying game. D&D is a roleplaying game, Star Wars Saga (amazon.com #133 as of right now) is a roleplaying game. True20 is not a game, it's just a system for one.

Green Ronin seriously fucked up in the release of their print book, many of the rules changes they made from the PDF to the book actually made the system LESS useful overall (like the "spend a conviction point to use ANY feat for one round" bullshit), and of course, their settings were absolute crap most of which didn't actually work well with the range of the system (an ill-thought-out attempt to try to "prove" just how far you go could go with True20), and the rest of which were just drek.

(except caliphate nights, which was quite good; if only the other settings had all been up to that level)

RPGPundit

That whole paragraph was all one sentence jeez Pundy when you're raving you're turning into James Joyce or some shit aren't you and now everybody--

It is not Popular for several reason I guess.

#1 Low Visibility. Not that many people know about it.
#2 D20 varient. It may stray too far from the normal d20 books rules.
#3 Generic. It is not its own Setting, but a varient system.

#1 is the biggest killer to its popularity I would imagine. Not many people really know about it well enough to like or dislike it.

I would not mind trying  True20. BUT. a few of the things about it keeps me from trying it or buying it. The convention Point for any FEAT for one turn/round is cool. But is suject to abuse my some players just like in M&M2e and It's Hero Points for the same things.

Its a pretty book however

I was guilty of mildly pimping True20 as it existed in Blue Rose form, thinking it would work fairly well if separated from the setting.

After I saw the final product of that effort, I will plainly say: I was wrong.

The main two reasons:
1) I don't feel like classes serve any real purpose in the system. AFAIAC, classes define a role. When your choice is so open, it's almost the same as point buy; the classes don't really help me in making characters at all.
2) It's really not any simpler in play than standard D20, despite claims and goals to the contrary. So for anything I'm going to do with it, why not go with the better supported D20 core.

Of course, I'm on board with the other alluded to reasons of poor settings in the core book and the core book being poorly explained and edited. But those aren't the big reasons for me.

Methinks (IMHO)...

1)It's not D20 (D&D, Modern, and Star Wars cover most of the genre bases for many players).

2)It's not WotC...so its visibility is much lower.

3)Harder to convert people from standard D20 to some goofy system they never heard of (just like most games that aren't D20).

4)Mechanics that worked great for M&M seem kind of "meh" when applied to a generic system

5)More time consuming and difficult for the GM and Players than standard D20 games.  Sure, the book is thinner, but it requires the GM to do a lot more prep work developing things, and Players a lot more time to "build" characters.

6)Introduces sub-systems that many people like (point buy characters, Damage system, ect.)...but more people don't.

7)Generic systems don't seem to be very popular these days.

8)Didn't generate a LOT of internet buzz

Just speculation, of course.  Probably the main reason is that it isn't an internet darling (making it look like it's more popular than it really is) and it's not D20...meaning it just isn't "popular".

Quote from: jdrakehFirst, its system of handling powers was a poorly thought-out fusion of the Black Company magic system and their M&M powers system. The result was a horribly unbalanced affair filled with a shitload of fiddly math that was subject to frequently change during actual play based upon the desired effect voiced by a player just prior to using a given power.

Though I won't quibble with your observation on the end product, I'll note that the source of the system was not Black Company, but the Psychic's Handbook.

Quote from: grubmanMethinks (IMHO)...

1)It's not D20 (D&D, Modern, and Star Wars cover most of the genre bases for many players).

2)It's not WotC...so its visibility is much lower.

3)Harder to convert people from standard D20 to some goofy system they never heard of (just like most games that aren't D20).

4)Mechanics that worked great for M&M seem kind of "meh" when applied to a generic system

5)More time consuming and difficult for the GM and Players than standard D20 games.  Sure, the book is thinner, but it requires the GM to do a lot more prep work developing things, and Players a lot more time to "build" characters.

6)Introduces sub-systems that many people like (point buy characters, Damage system, ect.)...but more people don't.

7)Generic systems don't seem to be very popular these days.

8)Didn't generate a LOT of internet buzz

Just speculation, of course.  Probably the main reason is that it isn't an internet darling (making it look like it's more popular than it really is) and it's not D20...meaning it just isn't "popular".

True20 got alot of Buzz on RPGnet for a good while. Then it fizzled away when the next cool rpg game along. Which I believe was Exalted 2e or something like that.

The wound tracking part confuses me, and my players, even in M&M2e. We have to remind ourself how it works all too often. That there is a big strike against True20 for my group's needs or wants.

Quote from: LacrioxusTrue20 got alot of Buzz on RPGnet for a good while. Then it fizzled away when the next cool rpg game along. Which I believe was Exalted 2e or something like that.

The wound tracking part confuses me, and my players, even in M&M2e. We have to remind ourself how it works all too often. That there is a big strike against True20 for my group's needs or wants.

You think?  I was always suprised at just how little attention it got on RPGnet, especially when it was new and shiny.

I agree in the second point.  I love M&M, but that wound system just never fealt "natural" to me like other elements of the game (despite so many people raving over it).  In fact, with 1st ed, we used the optional HP system for the first 2/3 of our campaign and it made the game much quicker.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadThough I won't quibble with your observation on the end product, I'll note that the source of the system was not Black Company, but the Psychic's Handbook.

My bad. I guess that was True Sorcery that was ripped from the pages of Black Company. That said, my final critique of the True20 powers system stands. In actual play (specifically, when trying to mimic D&D spells) it sucked.

Single-sentence paragraphs aside, I think Pundit is spot-on in his criticism of True20.  The corebook was abysmally edited (to the point of impairing utility), the rules changes from BR were a step backwards, and 3 of the 4 settings provided were deeply disappointing.

Grubman: Labels aside, True20 is just as "d20" as SWRPG Saga Edition.

KoOS

I feel fortunate to say I don't agree with anything said in this thread so far (at least when it comes to the opinions), other than that the settings were almost all either too vague for me, or not to my taste. We play True20 and enjoy it. We don't find it too much like DnD, too complicated, or "broken" in any other way. I've used it so far for fantasy and a modified Dark Matter game, and it worked fine and was fun.

As to why it's not more popular, the same could be asked for a great many other games. For example, I know nobody personally who plays or has played or has a desire to play WFRP, Amber, any story games, Blue Planet, C&C, etc... It's not DnD, which is my best guess as to why it's not more popular.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolGrubman: Labels aside, True20 is just as "d20" as SWRPG Saga Edition.

True, but I think the way they "improved" upon D20 are very different.  Saga took all the core concepts of standard D20 and worked them into something better while retaining them, while True20 simply took out core concepts (like ability scores, classes, HPs, ect.) and replaced them with new systems.

Of course, that's just the way I see it.