Why is it that certain licensed settings get RPGs, including often very obscure ones, but others do not?
Why is there no Matrix RPG?
Why is there no Fifth Element RPG?
Why no Terminator RPG?
RPGPundit
or stargate?
or space 1999?
or UFO?
You can still get Stargate on ebay.
My guess is that these licenses cost a fortune (or costed at the height of the older ones' popularity).
As far as UFO goes, I don't think anyone ever wanted an RPG for that :D
There was a Stargate RPG, actually.
RPGPundit
Or Star Maidens / Die Mädchen aus dem Weltall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Trrsh8X0G8)?
Quote from: RPGPunditThere was a Stargate RPG, actually.
That's what I meant - I see copies of it on ebay all the time.
Quote from: pigames.netThat's what I meant - I see copies of it on ebay all the time.
(checks ebay)
some sort of d20-ish thing, by AEG? no wonder i missed it.
Maybe it's a licensing issue, a marketability issue or a "What are you gonna do, just beat up Mangalores...?" issue.
I remember seeing what a 1-year license cost for Dream Wave productions to produce "Transformers" comics (this is before the movie). I forget the exact amount but it was stupid expensive, and they couldn't make it profitable.
Most such proposals are adequately addressed with an existing RPG.
It should be remembered that for a while there was a total drought of licenced RPGs; until Mongoose started putting out semi-decent ones recently, licenced RPGs had suffered from a bad reputation for years. There was a flood of bad ones in the late 1990s - the Aliens RPG and the Men In Black RPG spring to mind.
Additionally, I think the fall of West End Games made game companies leery of licences for a good long while. I think I've yakked on here before about how I'm convinced that excessive chasing of licences bear the brunt of the blame for WEG's woes, but I can't remember: here's my argument, anyhow:
- Back in its heyday, WEG chased after a whole heap of licences. Some of them were great - the Star Wars RPG was the jewel in WEG's crown, and Ghostbusters went down pretty well - but many of them weren't. (Remember the Men In Black RPG? Or the Hercules and Xena RPG?) The failed licences ended up costing WEG a heap, which pushed them further towards financial difficulties.
- When WEG eventually hit a financial crisis - due to the failed licences, the general sluggishness of the RPG industry, and a complicated arrangement with a shoe factory - they ended up in a god-awful dilemma. To produce more products - and thus get some cash flow going - they needed to ditch some of their licences to get some operating capital (or at least to stop themselves from bleeding money). But if they ditched the licences, they'd be reducing the number of game lines they could continue to support. Furthermore, when renewal time came up, other companies could come up with much more attractive offers than WEG, which meant that they lost even more licences. If you were Lucasfilm, would you renew the Star Wars licence with a failing game company which wouldn't necessarily be able to bring the production values you think Star Wars deserves to the table, or would you give it to a game company which could give Star Wars a decent level of support (thus giving you a better flow of royalties)?
- Having concentrated so much on licences, WEG was left floundering once they lost them. Their biggest non-licenced RPGs were Paranoia (the rights to which ended up being reacquired by the original designers) and Torg (which they sat on for no good reason until recently - perhaps there wasn't as much Torg nostalgia back then). The D6 system was well-regarded, but it had only seen use in various licenced games, and WEG had been burned before when it went the generic system route (remember Masterbook?).
With the cautionary tale of WEG to consider, it's not surprising other RPG companies have been leery about licences.
(Edited for clarity).
Even if a licensed product sells decently, it can be hard to make money on them due to royalties taking out a chunk of the income.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!a "What are you gonna do, just beat up Mangalores...?" issue.
That's what I see. The Fifth Element universe would make a nice setting book, but everything that can be done in that verse can be done in Firefly/HardNova/Traveller, etc.
The Matrix is a different story. I have a ton of ideas for what could be done in the Matrix-verse to make it playable and fun while sticking close to the original movie and drawing elements from the sequels. Unfortunately, I have more ideas than money. :)
Pete
Quote from: NicephorusEven if a licensed product sells decently, it can be hard to make money on them due to royalties taking out a chunk of the income.
I'm not sure that's how a license works. As I understand it, you pay a flat fee and then you keep the income. I'm sure that's not how all of the contracts work, but I would say the majority.
Pete
The alternative, for cash strapped folks is to nick bits, rename them and re-shape them a bit. If done well, the source should be apparent as the inspiration. Of course, that won't get you the sales that a license will, but 'swings and roundabouts' as they say.
Quote from: One Horse TownThe alternative, for cash strapped folks is to nick bits, rename them and re-shape them a bit. If done well, the source should be apparent as the inspiration. Of course, that won't get you the sales that a license will, but 'swings and roundabouts' as they say.
...or just use
BESM,
GURPS 4th/e,
HERO, or
SAVAGE WORLDS to approximate those settings.
- Ed C.
Quote from: pspahnThat's what I see. The Fifth Element universe would make a nice setting book, but everything that can be done in that verse can be done in Firefly/HardNova/Traveller, etc.
Pete
I think you could say that about pretty much any Sci-Fi game. I definitely think that a Fifth Element universe could be a viable RPG. But it is way past its prime. By that I mean theres no current movie TV show etc. That could generate interest in it. So it would just be core niche fans. Therefore I would think not very profitable.
Now the Terminator on the other hand I think not only has the RPG possiblilties. But with a string of movies, and a TV show coming out this fall. That could be a hit. You could play before the fall. Maybe you end up being an important leader of the resistance. So they send terminators after you. Or your friends of people being stalked by terminators, and are tring to help them. Or just dealing with difficulties in our age preparing for the fall. Or you could play after the fall. Fighting the machines.
Quote from: Koltar...or just use BESM, GURPS 4th/e, HERO, or SAVAGE WORLDS to approximate those settings.
- Ed C.
Yup.
Quote from: RoninNow the Terminator on the other hand I think not only has the RPG possiblilties. But with a string of movies, and a TV show coming out this fall. That could be a hit. You could play before the fall. Maybe you end up being an important leader of the resistance. So they send terminators after you. Or your friends of people being stalked by terminators, and are tring to help them. Or just dealing with difficulties in our age preparing for the fall. Or you could play after the fall. Fighting the machines.
Yeah, I think that would still have a huge draw. I would set it just after the 3rd movie with the humans on the run having to band together to fight the machines (with a rough timeline of the different stages of resistance, from start to finish). Lots of cool opportunities for post-apoc roleplaying there.
Pete
Quote from: pspahnI'm not sure that's how a license works. As I understand it, you pay a flat fee and then you keep the income. I'm sure that's not how all of the contracts work, but I would say the majority.
Pete
Including all licenses (not just rpg), I think it can be both. They almost always have an initial fee to keep the riffraff from applying and to get something out of the deal if no product is ever made.
In addition to cost, a license can be quite a bit of extra logistical work depending on how protective the license holder is. If they want to sign off on everything, then there is extra time and crap of sending stuff off and waiting for an answer. My impression is that AEG cancelled their Farscape line after being frustrated with getting their core book out.
Quote from: pspahnI'm not sure that's how a license works. As I understand it, you pay a flat fee and then you keep the income. I'm sure that's not how all of the contracts work, but I would say the majority.
My understanding is that it varies from contract to contract: there's no universal licensing contract that's used for every licence out there.
It's also my impression that "perpetual licences" are rare-to-nonexistent - which means that the renewal process brings its own problems. If you're a game publisher and your game based on a licensed property isn't doing well, the people you're licensing from don't care, and aren't likely to drop the fee or royalties arrangement to the point where you'll start making money (and if the game's not doing well you might be disinclined to renew it anyhow). If the game is doing well, then the company you're licensing from might want a bigger cut of the action, leaving you with a choice of a) appeasing them and making less money yourself or b) dropping the licence, losing even more money, and wasting all the effort you've gone to preparing products which will have to be scrapped.
Quote from: pspahnI'm not sure that's how a license works. As I understand it, you pay a flat fee and then you keep the income. I'm sure that's not how all of the contracts work, but I would say the majority.
Pete
IME the flat fee (fully paid variety) only occurs when the licensee (the person taking the license) has the market power. This is not the case with the kinds of licenses we are talking abou. An RPG company can only hope to make in a lifetime what these blockbuster movies and shows make in a month.
The primary business reason to even license your powerful brand to an RPG company is that it will help maintain your market presence in your demographic and drive sales in your other mechandise. It's more like advertsing that you don't have to pay for than anything else. The revenue stream is not likely to cover even your cost of administrating such a license.
I'd suspect the licenses to RPG companies include an up-front payment, plus a royalty, plus a minimum royalty payment and maybe even a minimum sales requirement. I'd also suspect they have serious approval provisions so the RPG company doesn't end up doing something that tarnishes the brand. Afterall what is really selling these games? It's not the game mechanics or comapny, it's the setting, the brand.
I'm an anime nut, so...
Neon Genesis Evangelion? There are four new movies on the way.
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex? Two TV series as prequels to the movies. I think there's also a SAC movie out, though I'm not sure it's been subbed/dubbed into English yet.
Fullmetal Alchemist? Screams RPG. Nothing forthcoming that I've heard of, but Conquerer of Shamballah is fairly recent.
Bleach? Not a fan myself, but it's got enough people into it and plenty of episodes on the way.
Naruto? See Bleach.
Also, a number of video games could be PnP-ified, like Halo.
All of the aforementioned anime series, and a great deal more, can be done just fine with existing games- and done with aplomb by a smaller subset of them.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAll of the aforementioned anime series, and a great deal more, can be done just fine with existing games- and done with aplomb by a smaller subset of them.
Indeed, doing a whole bunch of different anime series is the entire schtick of at least one game (BESM).
I know for the Matrix, the Wachowski's directly credit Mage: the Ascension as an inspiration for the movie. I think it could be converted over (Awakening would be easier) pretty easily.
Quote from: WarthurIndeed, doing a whole bunch of different anime series is the entire schtick of at least one game (BESM).
Not to mention other games--such as the venerable
Mekton series--that covers smaller subsets of the wide variety of genres produced in Japan, either in comic or animation format or take different approaches (
Tinker's Dam, OVA). However, tabletop RPGs not expressly marketed as "anime games" can also do the job just fine, and I'm not talking about HERO or GURPS. With just a few tweaks, you can return
Record of Lodoss War to its D&D roots using whatever edition of the game you prefer. The Super Robot shows can be done using any superhero RPG flexible enough to copy Captain Marvel, and the same is true of both the Magical Girl shows and their meant-for-boys counterparts.
Vision of Escaflowne is easy to replicate using
Exalted, as is
Aura Battler Dunbine.
Cowboy Bebop is doable with
Traveller (so long as Ed and Ein are NPCs),
Spycraft or
d20 Modern (and you can have Ed and Ein as PCs).
All Flesh Must Be Eaten works well enough for the
Vampire Hunter D films (and the latter of the pair,
Bloodlust, is the best damned
RIFTS movie yet made). Strip away the "anime" label, look at the source material as if it were anything live-action or literary, and you'll easily see a plethora of existing RPG products that can already do the job of recreating it.
Quote from: KrakaJakI know for the Matrix, the Wachowski's directly credit Mage: the Ascension as an inspiration for the movie. I think it could be converted over (Awakening would be easier) pretty easily.
They did? Where?
Quote from: KrakaJakI know for the Matrix, the Wachowski's directly credit Mage: the Ascension as an inspiration for the movie.
Reference please?
Thirding the call for a reference; all I can find are forum posts by Matrix fans speculating that Mage might be an influence.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAll of the aforementioned anime series, and a great deal more, can be done just fine with existing games- and done with aplomb by a smaller subset of them.
Yes, but I think the industry may be missing some golden opportunity by not linking us closer to the anime craze.
RPGPundit
I'm well aware that there are versatile generic systems capable of running the anime series I mentioned.
But what anime fan is going to pick up a book and buy it because it *might* let him play in his favorite TV show? As licenses go, it's the name on the box as much as anything.
Also... what system would you recommend for Naruto/Bleach? I've read BESM and GURPS 4e. Do you really see these as a good fit or did you have something else in mind?
Until I can come across something better, anything that's focused on powers and techniques is best handled by either M&M or HERO.
I think it should be remembered that most anime fans - and by "anime fans" I'm thinking of people who follow at least one anime series outside of the really high-profile ones like your Pokemons and Yu-Gi-Ohs - are aware of RPGs anyhow, such geek hobbies having a fair amount of crossover. There's two possibilities: either nobody's succeeded in making an anime-themed game which sufficiently grabs them and draws them in, or those of them who'd be inclined to play RPGs already do. (Indeed, a goodly proportion of the online fanfiction roleplaying thingies on livejournal are anime-based - or take the fandom in question and anime-fy it.)
Quote from: beejazzGhost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex? Two TV series as prequels to the movies. I think there's also a SAC movie out, though I'm not sure it's been subbed/dubbed into English yet.
This has the potential to be a very good cyberpunk rpg. Yea, yea, it could be done ok with existing systems. But the vast majority of players don't want to spend 100 hours working on a conversion, they want stats for all the equipment and modifications. I remember a that theres' a D20 homemade version that's a couple of hundred pages long but I don't remember much about it.
A Naruto game with a good system that is simple yet flexible enough to handle a wide variety of powers would have the potential to attract a ton of kids who don't already play rpgs.
The setting of Space: Above and Beyond would be a pretty wicked setting for an RPG, but it's easy enough to do that it doesn't really need its own published game with a license- Alternity would work perfectly.
I d=went back to where I read it originally, and it appears the Wachowskis have pulled all of their interviews off of whatisthematrix.com. That where I read it originally.
I rememeber it pretty vividly because I had absolutely no interest in Mage until I read that interview.
Quote from: KrakaJakI d=went back to where I read it originally, and it appears the Wachowskis have pulled all of their interviews off of whatisthematrix.com. That where I read it originally.
Have you tried looking via the Wayback Machine?
Quote from: RPGPunditYes, but I think the industry may be missing some golden opportunity by not linking us closer to the anime craze.
RPGPundit
I generally dislike most Anime...except realistic-looking stuff like
Ghost In The Shell. Now if there was a
Ghost In The Shell RPG - I'd be interested in buying it. There has been a thread on the SJG forums sometimes discussing how to adapt the major or someone like her using the
GURPS rules.
- Ed C.
Quote from: John MorrowHave you tried looking via the Wayback Machine?
Mr. Peabody says I'm not allowed in the lab anymore.
For no paritcular reason.
Quote from: KrakaJakMr. Peabody says I'm not allowed in the lab anymore.
For no paritcular reason.
He was being serious. (http://www.archive.org/web/web.php)
Quote from: J ArcaneHe was being serious. (http://www.archive.org/web/web.php)
Yeah, I guess I should have included the URL instead of being lazy about it.
The Wayback Machine is a web site that lets you view many web sites as they looked up to several years ago. It's a great way of finding stuff that's officially been taken down.
Has any body here ever played Elite (http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Category:Classic)?
A quick write up of the universe at hand and how to generate more of it would be rather neat.
Yea, things very much like it have been done again and again, i.e. Traveller, but I want something very specific to Elite.
Quote from: darHas any body here ever played Elite (http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Category:Classic)?
yeah, during school lunchtimes huddled round a BBC Micro. Constantly crashing into the space station and outrunning pirates. Elite was a classic. When we first played Traveller we wanted to TRADE, fleecing alien scum. Well, it was the 80's.
Elite is a classic. I'd love to play in that universe.
- Licenses can be relatively expensive (notice relatively - in the world of licensing a few grand might not be much but to many game companies it is a significant chunk of change).
- Sometimes there's not just one movie studio, publisher, etc. to deal with and it takes lawyers to help sort it out. That means more money and more headaches. Not everyone will want to play ball.
- There may be approval processes, delays in publishing due to changes that have to be made, etc. Those delays amount to lost opportunity or profits.
- Not everything from the setting may be made available for publication in the RPG (see #2 and 3).
- There's often not a lot of meat on the setting, especially if the property is from a movie or other visual medium. Anything that is fleshed out more is pretty much automatically "non-canon." The licensor may not like all of the proposed changes even if they would make a better game setting (see #2, 3 and 4).
I believe that you can point to any published RPG license and find that at least one of these factors applied to it at some point in time.
Isn´t ELITE Traveller inspired, instead of the other way around?
Quote from: John MorrowYeah, I guess I should have included the URL instead of being lazy about it.
The Wayback Machine is a web site that lets you view many web sites as they looked up to several years ago. It's a great way of finding stuff that's officially been taken down.
Oh sweet
Although I can get one of their (the Wachowski's) chat transcripts, but it's not the right one. Grrr...I wish I could find it for you guys.
I hope you do. When I saw the Matrix, I was certain that it was inspired by Mage. I'd love to see the proof in writing.
Quote from: SettembriniIsn´t ELITE Traveller inspired, instead of the other way around?
Yes it is. I didn't mean to imply anything else. The ELITE universe is its own thing, however.
Quote from: darYes it is. I didn't mean to imply anything else. The ELITE universe is its own thing, however.
If you can call a bunch of randomly generated planets that all look the same a "universe".
Seems like quite a stretch to me.
Well there is a background to the game, and a story of sorts.
http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/dkwheel.htm
Granted the planets were randomly generated, but then again the game wasn't specifically about the planets.
I do seem to recall seeing a Terminator liscenced game on the shelves years ago... I think from the same folks that brought us Pheonix Command, Aliens and Lawnmowerman...among others...
Quote from: SpikeI do seem to recall seeing a Terminator liscenced game on the shelves years ago... I think from the same folks that brought us Pheonix Command, Aliens and Lawnmowerman...among others...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000RIEJ0C/ref=nosim/waynesworldof-20
The Fifth Element did have an RPG, or close enough to one at any rate: the Metabarons RPG by WEG.
KoOS
Okay... I know full well why they don't have an RPG of it and it could be easily handled by generic systems (preempting the obvious responses) but I would soooo love to play in a game based on Black Lagoon.
Harry Potter is one of those things that screams, "Introductory kids rpg"-- but I think JK Rowling has some 1980s phobia of rpgs or something.
Quote from: BASHMANHarry Potter is one of those things that screams, "Introductory kids rpg"-- but I think JK Rowling has some 1980s phobia of rpgs or something.
I think it's more a very 2000s irritation with fan fiction, and a feeling that putting a Potter RPG out there would facilitate even more of it, coupled with a slightly controlling attitude towards the setting - she really, really doesn't like the idea of other people taking it away and doing other things with it.
My pet theory to explain the lack of a Harry Potter RPG is this:
If codified as an RPG setting, the world would have to make some type of sense.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My pet theory to explain the lack of a Harry Potter RPG is this:
If codified as an RPG setting, the world would have to make some type of sense.
My theory, reinforced by her newest project and her venomous attitude towards the fan made potter encylopedea (in the news last week) was the same as its been for a while: Rowlings is a Stone Cold Bitch. With a very sharp business savvy mind, which she has leverage to turn an enjoyable but not spectacular read into the phenomenon of the decade.
But, yeah, she's a bitch, and there is no profit in an RPG for her, only a perceived weakening on her iron taloned grasp on her 'property'.
Not that I care, I've only read one potter book and only seen a couple movies due to the girl...
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My pet theory to explain the lack of a Harry Potter RPG is this:
If codified as an RPG setting, the world would have to make some type of sense.
Nice!
I'm still waiting to see if Potter is Mongooses "holy grail."
I think Halo would make for an excellent RPG.
Quote from: DrewI'm still waiting to see if Potter is Mongooses "holy grail."
Other than "D&D" it's the only thing which could possibly live up to the hype they've built up around that;
Star Wars is clutched tightly in Wizards' grasp, and
Lord of the Rings has lost its appeal as a gaming licence after the lacklustre Decipher version.
Quote from: Warthurlacklustre Decipher version.
Well, I ran a campaign of this game, and found it to be enjoyable. The sales for it may have been lackluster, but the game itself was pretty good. In all the times I've seen the game criticized, I've yet to see any negative criticism from someone who has actually run the game for a few months.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My pet theory to explain the lack of a Harry Potter RPG is this:
If codified as an RPG setting, the world would have to make some type of sense.
:wizard:
Veritas!
Quote from: ColonelHardissonWell, I ran a campaign of this game, and found it to be enjoyable. The sales for it may have been lackluster, but the game itself was pretty good. In all the times I've seen the game criticized, I've yet to see any negative criticism from someone who has actually run the game for a few months.
Circular reasoning. Anyone who didn't enjoy the game wouldn't keep running it for months.
The fact remains that LotR has passed through the hands of several gaming RPG companies and hasn't really translated to massive sales for any of them: MERP was good for ICE, but wasn't exactly a licence to print money, and the Decipher LotR RPG simply didn't sell. At this point, chasing after the LotR licence would be throwing good money after bad; it'd be deluding yourself into thinking that you could make a mint out of the game, because gamers will latch onto your version to a greater extent than they did the Decipher version or MERP.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!My pet theory to explain the lack of a Harry Potter RPG is this:
If codified as an RPG setting, the world would have to make some type of sense.
It's
Ars Magica.
Think about it: the wizards do their business in a magical realm out of the sight of normal people. (Platform 9 3/4, Daigon Alley and Hogwarts presumably all exist in magical regios.) They cast spells by stringing Latin together, and get better at magic through intensive academic study. The Order of Hermes has become the Ministry of Magic, and carefully controls things (you're not allowed to use magic unsupervised until you've completed your apprenticeship/finished school, for example) but is nonetheless fallible, and has a bunch of leet magical detectives (Justicars/Aurors) to battle evil.
It's totally
Ars Magica.
Just to be clear, I read and enjoyed the HP books, even though it was ever noticeable that the internal logic served the story and the story ONLY, and the books were, as Spike says, "enjoyable but not spectacular".
Quote from: WarthurIt's totally Ars Magica.
Thats freaky close too... hmm...
Quote from: Warthur[Harry Potter]'s totally Ars Magica.
Hey, nifty. And scavenging the simplified combat rules from
Rune... :haw:
!i!
Quote from: WarthurIt's Ars Magica.
Think about it: the wizards do their business in a magical realm out of the sight of normal people. (Platform 9 3/4, Daigon Alley and Hogwarts presumably all exist in magical regios.) They cast spells by stringing Latin together, and get better at magic through intensive academic study. The Order of Hermes has become the Ministry of Magic, and carefully controls things (you're not allowed to use magic unsupervised until you've completed your apprenticeship/finished school, for example) but is nonetheless fallible, and has a bunch of leet magical detectives (Justicars/Aurors) to battle evil.
It's totally Ars Magica.
I wasn't particularly interested in HP till I read that.