Quote from: SettembriniI don´t think so.
Still you made some points, surely many things depend on the DM. But remember "System Matters". And you said, there was only one fight and that was over quick. To me that would be awfully boring.

That was the players' choice, not mine.  They chose to think their way around it rather than just start bashing.  And hell, even the one fight was more of a murder than a good old fashioned brawl, and may well start the PC in question down the path to evil.
 

QuoteIt surely can be, that the way you game is full of conflict. But my taste for conflict is definitely on the detailed side, not some sort of meta conflict.
 
I have a lot of gaming experience as a player and DM under my belt. I´ve never seen any Wushu, HKAT, Buffy, GURPS etc. that I found interesting. If it´s not pseudo realistic (Harnmaster/Traveller) or outright HighFantasy Gamism, I just don´t care for it anymore.
I respect you finding conflict in HighSchool Drama, loaded up with some Witchcraft. Respect me finding it boring, if there is neither research done for the
 
a) "realistic" accuracy (think FF&S or NATO Vehicle Guide by GDW)
nor the
b) game balance aspects (D&D 3.5)

Hey, we cool.  You like what you like.  To me all that extra detail is just extra work.  I prefer Buffy where the bulk is in setting up conflicts, interesting characters, and thinking about where the PCs need to be challenged.  The game stats take maybe ten minutes to prepare for a session.  Maybe less.   Actually, there's a fair amount of crunch in Buffy on the PC side what with the combat maneauvers.  Kicks are harder to hit but do more damage, decapitation moves can insta-kill if you pull them off, but likely will do nothing, and so on.  Lots of tactical options.  The magic system is a lot more dependant on GM fiat, mostly to get the feel of the show.  Magic is very powerful, dangerous, and unpredictible.

QuoteI can "Storytell" with a Pizza as a system, as long as the Anchovis doesn´t get into my way. But then I´m highly dependant on the DM and his l33t st0rytelling skillz.
I´ve seen enough self proclaimed "artistes" trainwrecking an evening with their attempts of "creating a collaborative story". You might be a good artiste, but that will not be because of your so-called system.

Yeah, but you have to have the right tool for the job.  Give a sculptor a brush and you ain't getting very far.  System matters, but not for the GM.  The GM is going to do whatever the hell he wants anyway.  System matters for the players, because they are constrained by it.  The system determines what is a good idea and what is not.  The players will in general do what the system rewards them for.  Use the system that rewards the behaviour and style that you want - don't run 3e D&D then complain that your players are all too tactical.  If they aren't they'll be killed!

Quote from: MaddmanBecause combat is not resolved by DM fiat.

Well initiative is but the rest of it does have rules to be fair. :deviousgrin:

Quote from: BagpussWell initiative is but the rest of it does have rules to be fair. :deviousgrin:

Well, yeah.  Technically the initiative rule is "Whatever the GM thinks makes sense."  What makes sense most of the time for me is for everyone to roll and go in cyclic initiative like d20.  After playing 3e I can't hardly stand to roll initiative every round any more.

QuoteSystem matters, but not for the GM.

That´s wrong. Not everytime. But the exact reason for D&D 3.5 being the world´s greatest in my eyes is that it sets up rules even the DM has to follow.
It´s a sort of player empowerment and distributed authoring. Things the Forge has been trying to get hold of.
It was always there, maybe not in the form everybody likes it. But the player empowerment is one of the congenial things about D&D or hardcore SIMs like Harnmaster or Traveller.
In nearly all other things we seem to have reached consensus.
BTW my experience with UNISYSTEM was with Consp. X, I understand that it is closely related. I wasn´t impressed, I would prefer Dark Conspiracy every day. Or even better Milleniums End/DC Crossover. It´s the r0xx0rz!
Real guns, real horror.

Quote from: SettembriniBTW my experience with UNISYSTEM was with Consp. X, I understand that it is closely related. I wasn´t impressed, I would prefer Dark Conspiracy every day. Or even better Milleniums End/DC Crossover. It´s the r0xx0rz!
Real guns, real horror.

The new one that just came out, or the old one?  Because the old one was made by the same people, but wasn't on Unisystem.  Not really familiar with it to be honest.  Did play a lot of Dark Conspiracy.  Cool setting (and we had a good GM) but that system was wonky.

And what do you mean 3e makes the GM follow rules?  They do no such thing!  There's still rule 0, isn't there?  I certainly relied on fiat and judgement plenty when I ran 3e, just when I did work up statblocks it was a lot more work.  Actually one of the benefits of such a complex rulesystem is how easy it is to bullshit your way through it.  Especially at high level, I mastered the art of fudging while rolling in the open.  With all the spells, feats, items, and conditions that could vary round to round whose to say what my bad guys are doing?  Even looking at the dice won't clue you in .

Unisystem and the original Conspiracy X are not very related at all. Other than being the same company, and actually that's not even true as Conspiracy X wasn't originally published by Eden Studios.

QuoteThere's still rule 0, isn't there? I certainly relied on fiat and judgement plenty when I ran 3e, just when I did work up statblocks it was a lot more work. Actually one of the benefits of such a complex rulesystem is how easy it is to bullshit your way through it. Especially at high level, I mastered the art of fudging while rolling in the open. With all the spells, feats, items, and conditions that could vary round to round whose to say what my bad guys are doing?

No, actually the "Golden Rule" is a WoD thing.
 
@rules: You bastard! Don´t cheat around with the rules! Why have such well thought out rules, if you go bonkers with them? Then you could drop it and go diceless from the start. And with some experienced players, who are keeping track, you will be in trouble anyways. DM cheating is bad (for GAM). Gary Gygax says so, don´t you know? (Warning some mild irony in last statement post scriptum warning: as there is the dual barrier of Intarweb and language I fear the concept Irony [which I read* is unknown in the USA] doesn´t neccessarily reach the targeted audience without error; wherefore I felt it better to point it out)
 
If I want Star Wars, I should not go to see Odyssee:2001, if you know what I mean.
 
* W.H. Atshisname (2000ish):The Munchkin´s Guide to Powergaming.Steve Jackson Games.

Quote from: SettembriniNo, actually the "Golden Rule" is a WoD thing.
 
@rules: You bastard! Don´t cheat around with the rules! Why have such well thought ou rules, if you go bonkers with them? Then you could drop it and go diceless from the start. And with some experienced players, who are keeping track, you will be in trouble anyways. DM cheating is bad (for GAM). Gary Gygax says so, don´t you know? (Warning some mild irony in last statement post scriptum warning: as there is the dual barrier of Intarweb and language I fear the concept Irony [which I read* is unknown in the USA] doesn´t neccessarily reach the targeted audience without error; wherefore I felt it better to point it out)
If I want Star Wars, I should not go to see Odyssee:2001, if you know what I mean.

The rules are there for the players, not the GM.  The GM only need keep up the appearance of following them.  I mean even rolling in the open, if I roll a 9 one round and hit and roll 11 the next and miss, that doesn't tell you anything, does it?  Maybe a spell expired, maybe he's power attacking or using Expertise.  Maybe he has some ability you don't know about that he used last time.  THe player has no way to know, so it doesn't matter.  So long as I got somewhere in the neighborhood it's all good.

Now granted, most of the time I'd be going off an actual statblock.  But if things went unexpectedly as they are wont to do you could find yourself needing a powerful foe that you haven't statted.  Better not to disrupt the flow of the game by stopping to generate one properly.

As I've said before though, one of the biggest things missing from 3e is a good set of mook rules.  I don't need full stats for every grunt and flunkie.  Give me a good way to approximate them without a lot of work!

QuoteThe rules are there for the players, not the GM.

Sir, I definitely don´t want to play in a "game" like that. I did have enough of that. And in fact, those who play 3.5 around here, the rules,...eh... well they rule! The Game, that is. I want an Umpire or a Referee. Not a "Narrator".
That´s Player Empowerment!

Quote from: SettembriniSir, I definitely don´t want to play in a "game" like that. I did have enough of that. And in fact, those who play 3.5 around here, the rules,...eh... well they rule! The Game, that is. I want an Umpire or a Referee. Not a "Narrator".
That´s Player Empowerment!

I disagree that it's really player empowering, because they don't have the freedom of a GM deciding when the rules should apply strictly and when they should be a little looser.  But to each his own, 3.5 isn't offering much of what I find interesting in gaming.  I feel like nothing important to the character is on the character sheet.

I'm also not doing the railroading stuff you probably are thinking of.  I describe it as throwing hand grenades at the PCs and watching to see what way they jump.  

QuoteI describe it as throwing hand grenades at the PCs and watching to see what way they jump.

See, for me that was only interesting whence it remains clear, that damage, range of the grenade in question are handled by the rules AND if different directions exist. Thus, my approach to Traveller:
I set up my own sector, all conflicts, all powers with all their assetts. Then begin play. Where do you want to jump today? It´s a detailed world full of adventure, where everything exists whether you go there or not. And while not playing, I had fun advancing all other powers in the sector, waging wars, managing pocket empire economies etc. Can you imagine how hard decision making became for the PCs? They knew the stuff they did would affect the future. That´s Player Empowerment.
You surely would just make stuff up on the fly. I´m too old for that kind of entertainment. It´s no challenge when it´s not defined beforehand.
I´m not trying to convince you. But I´m trying to give you insight, why I absolutely wouldn´t dig your game.
Or any other with a "Narrator" in it.
 
Give me a well defined challenge, or give me death!

Quote from: SettembriniGive me a well defined challenge, or give me death!

Stick to board games, you'll be much happier.

The rules regardless if the GM sticks to them are not irrelivant.  The GM will always have all the cards.  They have an unlimited ammount of resources and the fore knowledge of how it will all come together.  There is no such thing as player empowerment, it's a myth.  You may, as a player, have momentary control over what you can do and even have that feeling that you are 'winning' but you have no power.

QuoteStick to board games, you'll be much happier.

Please refrain from swinish comments like these, unlest total carnage is thy wish.
Have you never read any of those Ron Edwards basic articles? I assume, so you must have heard of a thing called CA? Last time I checked, there were others than NARR.
 

QuoteThey have an unlimited ammount of resources and the fore knowledge of how it will all come together

That´s plain wrong. it´s only true in illdefined raillroad adventures. Any module worthit´s salt has the ressource of the antagonists defined up to the last bullet.

My game is better than Unisystem 'cause it doesn't make me think I can ignore all the rules all the time when I'm DMing.  

Quote from: CyberzombieMy game is better than Unisystem 'cause it doesn't make me think I can ignore all the rules all the time when I'm DMing.  

I've been doing that for ages now.  I just don't let my players know that.