Quote from: James J SkachNot to mention gaming the system - or so I've heard...

You have to remember that with a Story Game(tm), the system isn't profoundly broken, it is simply intended to highlight certain aspects of the story.

Honest. No really. It may look broken, but its not. Its supposed to be like that. Honest.









No, really.

Quote from: Elliot WilenYou almost got it, but then you veered off into error.

I'm saying just because a game is designed around a theme, there's no guarantee that the theme will actually "appear" at the game table, even if the rules are followed exactly.

It's hard enough with a book or movie: the author might feel the story is deeply imbued with meaning; that doesn't mean the audience is going to "buy it". It's even harder with an RPG, since the nature of the format is that you're asking the audience to make the story for themselves, using instructions which are subject to the vagaries of language and context.

(Working from the trumpet analogy, you might somehow be able to write a set of instructions which will enable a buyer to play all the notes perfectly; you could also include a book on music theory; but neither of these is going to turn the owner into Dizzy Gillespie.)

In both cases it's possible for the author to give away the show as it were and just say, "This is what my book is about, so now you know, I'm a genius." The audience's reply: "Who gives a damn about your message, we want to read a story, not a didactic allegory or an essay on morals." So that rarely works, unless the reader suffers some sort of cognitive dissonance about his self-image, i.e., if the reader's conned into thinking, "If I enjoy this great work, then I must be a genius!"

This is a good point, and well made -- I think "aboutness" happens at the table and I suspect that players will manipulate even the most restrictive games to be "about" whatever they feel like making them about.

Likewise, even the most broadly-based games (GURPS) that have little inherent "aboutness" are made "about" something in the hands of the players.

I see this phenonema in games that try to capture genre feeling in rules through tricks (e.g. using a card-based mechanic to capture the "feel" of the wild west) -- this works for some people and not others; I suspect there's a very limited connection between the author's intent and the results (less than in static media).

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: David RActually a player can do this in any game..right (depending on how focused the setting is)? I just find it a little odd that if you don't follow the design philosophy the (Forge) game breaks down and is not fun. I mean it's assumed there's a buy in but following the "design philosphy"...there's something else to Temple's statement.

Regards,
David R

There is indeed.

What Im saying is that itscompletelypossible for someone to play My Life With Master without the basic assumption that they are going to play a story of rebellion against a horrible master.
A group might concievably sit down with the assumption that being a slave to the Master is cool, and play scenes of gore and killing completely devoid of any sense of personal horror. Its very possible.

What MLWMs rules (and other games with a narrow theme and rules that support it) do is help players achieve the thematic content the author envisioned. But of course they have to agre beforehand that that is what they want to do.Otherwise its actually a waste of time to play MLWM.They would probably enjoy another system better, one that didnt constrain their choice of content to one pre-set theme.
And theres nothing wrong with that!

Yep!

As a result you either need to

1: Get over yourself

or

2: Accept no one is ever going to play your game!

QuoteAs with any kind of art, you can't really tell the audience what it's about. You have to somehow give them just enough information for them to be able to decide what it's about for themselves. It's a tricky proposition to say the least, and it can be somewhat uncomfortable for an artist when an audience decides that the work means something other than they intended (which is almost all the time ).

But that's the trouble with art: an audience has to make it theirs to appreciate it.

Quote from: TempleAnd theres nothing wrong with that!

No there isn't. But there's something dodgy about claiming that your game is about something and hence different - better, sophisticated ...art - when in reality it does not "play" differently then any other rpg. I don't think this is what you're saying (some examples using trad games would be nice...but I understand the difficulty in this, I mean trad games don't have such a narrow focus even when their themes are tied up with their system...I'm thinking Unknown Armies & Underground, to name just two) but I do think it's a reason why some folks get riled up.

Regards,
David R

Whom are you quoting, Erik? It's very well put.

Can I fly a Spaceship in MLWM?

Quote from: SettembriniCan I fly a Spaceship in MLWM?

Actually, you can. Because in that game players define the setting. But you will have no stat like "Pilot" or such. Unless it is part of the task of your master or your own agenda, it really doesn't play any importantance in the system.

What I actually don't like about MlwM game is the fact, that the end of the game (winning condition, if you wish) is well known and will happen sooner or later. Also it is pretty restrictive in that how your character is defined.

It looks pretty much like psychoteraphy in the book not a game of fun...

Well, Forger games can be deceiving little bastards!
The TELL you that your input is valued, but lok at BE!

It would be obvious to have space battles in there, but they are not!

So, can I really fly a spaceship in MLWM?

Quote from: TempleAm I "Swine?" Im an aspiring game designer, and I design indie games together with the (rather small) norwegian community. I want people to play these games, both mine and others, and to enjoy them and what they offer.

Hi Temple.  Glad to see you here.  

Games that mean something are fine.  Games that suggest other games are inferior because they're somehow less meaningful are not okay.  But really, what I want to know is what the hell is all this talk about games that mean something?  You're Norwegian.  You guys invented "kill them all and take their stuff."  Stick with what you know.



Welcome aboard.  

Pete

The Norwegians of recent also invented the:
"onanistic mysery tourism"-RPG about the Shoah!

Quote from: SettembriniThe Norwegians of recent also invented the:
"onanistic mysery tourism"-RPG about the Shoah!

 You HAD to remind us of that - didn't you??

- Ed C.

Quote from: SettembriniSo, can I really fly a spaceship in MLWM?

Well, as Alnag said, the group essentially defines the important elements of the setting before the beginning of the game; and while MLwM is by default set in some remote corner of Europe in the 19th century, there's no real reason why you can't play, say, Heralds of Galactus in the modern day.

Tough shit. So I can only fly a starship if I convice everybody else that we really need a starship?
I must convince everyone else to drop the proposed setting?
Well you can do that with any game.

I fear MLWM belongs into the starship-free category of RPGs, then.

Or can I introduce Starships, no matter what everyone else says?

AhAH! So it's a game about not having a spaceship!

See, they're all about something.