Quote from: David RReally? I'm gonna get back to you on this...broken Forge games...somewhere Uncle Ron feels a distrubance in the force...

Regards,
David R

Going for the pun and really weak analogy :

 Aren't broken metal things usually repaired in a Forge?

So why does the gamer version sound like the opposite of that ?

Quote from: David RReally? I'm gonna get back to you on this...broken Forge games...somewhere Uncle Ron feels a distrubance in the force...

At a guess, Temple is talking about behaviour like a player suddenly saying "forget it, I'm not going up that mountain" during a game of The Mountain Witch. Of course that would break up the session.

Quote from: AlnagJust one question. What if it is not?

Well.. It is.

Im really sorry for being so adamant, because I really do see your point. Illsee if I cant get back to you with concrete examples of game text that supports DitVs theme, but I cant right now. Were packing to catch a flight, you see, and Im technically watching the kids whileI type this.. Technically...

Quote from: TempleIm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

Are you saying that even though a game is designed around a theme, theres no guarantee that the game will be played around that theme? Because thats completely true.

There is also not any guarantee that a trumpet will be played by blowing through the mouthpiece by a person attempting to play it, or that a chessboard will be used to play chess on (and not checkers, for example). But that hardly matters, because the games are intended to be played in that way.

I dont understand the complaint, to be honest.

You almost got it, but then you veered off into error.

I'm saying just because a game is designed around a theme, there's no guarantee that the theme will actually "appear" at the game table, even if the rules are followed exactly.

It's hard enough with a book or movie: the author might feel the story is deeply imbued with meaning; that doesn't mean the audience is going to "buy it". It's even harder with an RPG, since the nature of the format is that you're asking the audience to make the story for themselves, using instructions which are subject to the vagaries of language and context.

(Working from the trumpet analogy, you might somehow be able to write a set of instructions which will enable a buyer to play all the notes perfectly; you could also include a book on music theory; but neither of these is going to turn the owner into Dizzy Gillespie.)

In both cases it's possible for the author to give away the show as it were and just say, "This is what my book is about, so now you know, I'm a genius." The audience's reply: "Who gives a damn about your message, we want to read a story, not a didactic allegory or an essay on morals." So that rarely works, unless the reader suffers some sort of cognitive dissonance about his self-image, i.e., if the reader's conned into thinking, "If I enjoy this great work, then I must be a genius!"

Tangent!

Elliot,
that´s what I think is so great about the "GDW-school" (will we continue to call it that?, BTW even if you don´t think it´s great it´s idiosyncratic): they aren´t explicitly telling you anything. It´s all open for you to figure out, or do what you want. This is different from Gygax, Rein-Hagen, and Pondsmith for example.

EDIT: waita minute! aren´t FGU games pretty much written in a similiar manner?

I'm tired of this thread and will no longer read it.

Quote from: TempleHi, sometime lurker, first time poster.

Hello and welcome to the boards.

I've waited a while to post to this thread, it seems to have taken off. A lot of the discussion seems to have focused on semantics, and by the end, I wasn't entirely sure what everyone was debating. I'll limit my comments to a few points from the original post.

Quote from: TempleIve read around the site, and attempted to form an opinion on the community here. Thats proved quite difficult, possibly because the community is so diverse.

Yes, it's a diverse lot, don't bother trying to stereotype the posters here as a unified group.

Quote from: TempleOn one hand I can hardly say I agree with the Pundit. I think that elitism is a problem (admittedly I see it as a problem in both the "indie camp" and the "mainstream camp" of the supposed conflict, but hey!), but thats about where the agreement ends.

I think, at the heart, that is Pundit's main stance.

It's also my stance. I get irked by publishers criticizing my style of playing as wrong, or insinuating that their style of play is better. I definitely feel like there is a bit of snobbery coming from a few people who write and/or play certain thematic small press games.

If, for example, you post here and imply that the games you like are more sophisticated than mine, and that I simply haven't evolved enough to a level of gaming where I could enjoy them, then I will get peeved. I'm not saying you're doing this, just saying that's the type of attitude that starts the whole "swine wars" mentality.

Quote from: TempleOn the other hand, I do like the unmoderated nature of theRPGsite,which is what drew me to register here.

It really is refreshing.

Quote from: TempleI like Storygames. I like thematic games, games that are about something. Games that make me feel.

Here, I'm not sure what you mean. I like a good story in my games. Interesting characters (both PC and NPC) that players get attached to, exciting cliffhangers, hidden conspiracies or connections, and a plot that people actually care about. If I can write a summary of a session afterward and it makes an interesting read, that was a good session.

I achieve story, theme and a feel of being "about" something with games like D&D, D20 Modern, Shadowrun, Legend of the 5 Rings, and Savage Worlds.

While not exactly stated here, it comes off that you are implying that these things (story, theme, about something, games that make you feel) are only (or best) achieved with narrativist, story-now, indy games like DitV or Sorcerer.

[

Quote from: TempleSo I listen to Tool, watch Pans Labyrinth and play Dogs in the Vineyard.

Why is that wrong? Is it wrong?

I don't think anyone here would tell you that is wrong.

Quote from: TempleAm I "Swine?" Im an aspiring game designer, and I design indie games together with the (rather small) norwegian community. I want people to play these games, both mine and others, and to enjoy them and what they offer.

Nope, so far, you aren't swine.

Quote from: TempleSo, why cant roeplaying games be anything other than the traditional model, according to you?* Why cant they be about something?

No one is saying games can't be about different things. I personally don't care for narrow-themed games like DitV, but there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't bother me simply by existing.

Asking "why can't they be about something" implies that traditional games aren't about anything, which is incorrect. D&D (to use a common example) is about playing the role of someone in a fantasy world and using the tools at your disposal to overcome obstacles. It's fairly generic in what it covers. You can effortlessly make it "about" more specific issues if you want, like racism for example, if you run a campaign focusing around pogroms against elves.

Certain indie games are "about" a more narrow theme. DitV is about seeing how far you will go... and has mechanics specifically designed to support this theme. Both D&D and DitV are about something, DitV is about a much more narrow theme than D&D, but D&D certainly is "about" something.

Cheers,
Jeff

Quote from: TempleIndie rpgs are a subset of rpgs in general.

Terminology gets confusing here. Especially indie games. There are all sorts of variations of games that fall under the generic term "indie". Small press games like Clash's Starcluster can be very traditional in overal approach (with some clever innovations). Is this an indie game? What is is "about"?

Then you have games like Burning Wheel. A forge favorite, very crunchy, feels much more D&D like to me than other small-press fantasy games like The Shadow of Yesterday. Is this an indie game? It really feels like a much more traditional game to me.

Then there are games like Spirit of the Century. It has more of a free-form character generation process, and has a few player-directed-narrative mechanics, but lacks the "about something" that you speak of. IMO, it's about the same thing as any D20 game would be - it's about adventure! Yet there are no narrow themes like in Sorcerer or DitV.

Take Inspectres - a very player-directed-narrative story game. What is it about? It's about running a supernatural detective agency and solving mysteries. Can I do this with D20 modern? Easily. The difference lies in the mechanics used to achieve those ends. Is this an "indie" game? Most people would probably say so. Is is "about something" in the same sense that Sorcerer, or DitV is? Not really. So then is it "about anything" in your definition?

One last example is the World of Darkness. It's certainly "about something" in the sense of a narrow theme - it's about the struggle of man against the monster in himself and various morality plays. Is this an indie game? Not by most people's standards, yet it certainly has a more narrow theme than other games usually considered indie like Burning Wheel.

Quote from: TempleI think appreciation of indie games is a matter of taste.

I don't think anyone would argue this point, but then again it is an extremely vague statement. I think appreciating D&D 3.5 vs AD&D 2nd edition is also a matter of taste. Appreciating Eberron vs. The Forgotten Realms is a matter of taste. Pretty much everything is a matter of taste.

Now where you are going to get into trouble is insinuating it's a matter of good taste vs. bad taste. Or that it indicates a more evolved or mature level of gaming.

If you can say "I think appreciation of indie games is a matter of taste, and appreciation of traditional games is also a matter of taste" then no one will argue with you. Of course, there really isn't much point in such a blanket statement.

Quote from: TempleI dont believe indie games to be harmful to the hobby as a whole any more than genres of music are harmful to music as a whole.

I can't see how anyone would think that a particular game or group of games could be bad for the hobby. I think someone telling people that the way they play games is causing them brain damage isn't good for sales of your product, but isn't necessarily hurting the hobby.

-Jeff

Quote from: GrimGentAt a guess, Temple is talking about behaviour like a player suddenly saying "forget it, I'm not going up that mountain" during a game of The Mountain Witch. Of course that would break up the session.

Actually a player can do this in any game..right (depending on how focused the setting is)? I just find it a little odd that if you don't follow the design philosophy the (Forge) game breaks down and is not fun. I mean it's assumed there's a buy in but following the "design philosphy"...there's something else to Temple's statement.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RActually a player can do this in any game..right (depending on how focused the setting is)?

But in this particular game, your character is explicitly there only to meet the witch at the mountain, although initially you alone know why that is so. Sure, you could lose the whole samurai flavour and instead play some other band of fellow travellers on the road, thrown together by a common final destination; but if you are not interested in anything like that at all, then why are you playing the game?

Quote from: GrimGentBut in this particular game, your character is explicitly there only to meet the witch at the mountain, although initially you alone know why that is so. Sure, you could lose the whole samurai flavour and instead play some other band of fellow travellers on the road, thrown together by a common final destination; but if you are not interested in anything like that at all, then why are you playing the game?

Very true, which is why I said "depending on how focused the setting/game is". But I think there's more (I could be mistaken - I'll wait for Temple to elaborate) to "following the design philosophy" than just buying into the setting/game.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RBut I think there's more (I could be mistaken - I'll wait for Temple to elaborate) to "following the design philosophy" than just buying into the setting/game.

Well, in Witch the players have a degree of narrative control over those setting elements which are somehow related to their characters' reasons for being at the mountain in the first place: for instance, they can introduce new NPCs. That might tie the themes of the game into the mechanics in a way which perhaps is not to everyone's taste.

Quote from: GrimGentThat might tie the themes of the game into the mechanics in a way which perhaps is not to everyone's taste.

Hmm, that might be it.

I find it interesting that most trad games with themes tied to mechanics are extremely robust and flexible whereas Forge games (IMO) seem extremely rigid. This of course is a drawback and perhaps why Forge games are not very popular...IMO of course. The design philosophy is too intrusive.

Regards,
David R

Like I say, as with any good game, Dogs in the Vineyard is about a lot of things -

Theres musings on the nature of authority, an excuse to be an evil facist bastard and burn people at the stake, an excuse to be to voice of reason and liberal acceptance in a world that, a funky world with quirky characters to explore and an outlet for someone with a black powder revolver fetish.

And thats just what I like - other people may like other things.

Thats why its far and away the most popular thing to come out of the forge - because its a great premise that speaks to lots of people in lots of ways.

Quote from: Erik BoielleLike I say, as with any good game, Dogs in the Vineyard is about a lot of things -

Theres musings on the nature of authority, an excuse to be an evil facist bastard and burn people at the stake, an excuse to be to voice of reason and liberal acceptance in a world that, a funky world with quirky characters to explore and an outlet for someone with a black powder revolver fetish.

And thats just what I like - other people may like other things.

Thats why its far and away the most popular thing to come out of the forge - because its a great premise that speaks to lots of people in lots of ways.

Not to mention gaming the system - or so I've heard...