Quote from: Elliot WilenThis makes sense, but it runs into a problem (which may be due to language).

DitV is designed to be "about something". But what this means is that the author of the game has an "aboutness" that he wants to convey and which he's tried to embed in the rules-text. It doesn't mean the rules actually succeed in conveying that "aboutness" to a given player, in anything more than a trivial sense (that is, receiving the author's opinion of his own game). For some subset of players, the "aboutness" they find in a traditional game may be perceived more clearly and strongly--more convincingly--than what they get from DitV.

Im not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

Are you saying that even though a game is designed around a theme, theres no guarantee that the game will be played around that theme? Because thats completely true.

There is also not any guarantee that a trumpet will be played by blowing through the mouthpiece by a person attempting to play it, or that a chessboard will be used to play chess on (and not checkers, for example). But that hardly matters, because the games are intended to be played in that way.

I dont understand the complaint, to be honest.

Quote from: David R(Bolding mine) Two points, Firstly IMO the intergration of rules and theme is not the sole domain of indie games.

Secondly just because a game is designed to "do something" does not mean it actually does it.

Regards,
David R

1.No, no its not. That is, in fact, the point I am making.

2. No, thats right. Why is that important?

Quote from: SettembriniNo, bucky. Jazzmusic is universally accepted as the intellectuals refined music taste and the real outlet for talented and virtuose musicians.

You already subverted the hip/cool image of the label "Indie", now you are aiming for more.

Your sophistry and weaseling will not help. If Jazz music was used by you, "just to make a non-value statement", then let it be heard Jazz music was a wrong choice. Because Jazz music has values attached to it.
If the example was really just an example, you needn´t insist on the Jazz music comparison.

Chose another one. I propose twelve-tone technique.

Also what he hasn't acknowledged is that "People like me" can enjoy Jazz as well.

 I'm not a 'Jazz-lover" ...but I can dance to it or enjoy it.

 Can't say the same about most of those "Indie/Forger" games.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Temple1.No, no its not. That is, in fact, the point I am making.

2. No, thats right. Why is that important?

Huh?

It´s important because if number 2) is answered negatively, the whole IPR-bag viral marketing of "certain style of games" would be a propagandistic lie.

Quote from: KoltarAlso what he hasn't acknowledged is that "People like me" can enjoy Jazz as well.

 I'm not a 'Jazz-lover" ...but I can dance to it or enjoy it.

 Can't say the same about most of those "Indie/Forger" games.

- Ed C.

That´s why I think twelve-tone technique fits the bill very nicely.

Quote from: SettembriniNo, bucky. Jazzmusic is universally accepted as the intellectuals refined music taste and the real outlet for talented and virtuose musicians.

You already subverted the hip/cool image of the label "Indie", now you are aiming for more.

Your sophistry and weaseling will not help. If Jazz music was used by you, "just to make a non-value statement", then let it be heard Jazz music was a wrong choice. Because Jazz music has values attached to it.
If the example was really just an example, you needn´t insist on the Jazz music comparison.

Chose another one. I propose twelve-tone technique.

Like I said, you are reading my posts like the devil reads the bible, looking for a fight.

Also, I personally have never subverted anything, and I hardly think that my comparing indie games to jazz music (and traditional games to classical music, I might add)is the start of a trend in the indie community. So hah.

But I concede that to some people, the jazz-music carries value. I apologise for any confusion I might have caused.

Heres what I ment:

Indie rpgs are a subset of rpgs in general.
I think appreciation of indie games is a matter of taste.
I dont believe indie games to be harmful to the hobby as a whole any more than genres of music are harmful to music as a whole.

Better?

Quote from: TempleThat is, in fact, the point I am making.

Where? I mean seriously, where did you make this point. You mentioned story/thematic games...told us why you like DitV, but where exactly did you say, that the intergration of rules and themes were not the sole domain of indie games. You mentioned something about games designed to be about something and then dove right into DitV.

Quote2. No, thats right. Why is that important?

I dunno, it seemed important enough for you to start a thread about games being about something. Is it such a stretch that when the dscussion gets rolling the claim is tested?

Regards,
David R

@temple:
You just need to replace the indie. Because surely, you aren´t talking about FtA! or DeGenesis here, do you?

No, you´re talking about an aesthetic/design category, not a mode of publishing, correct?

Quote from: KoltarAlso what he hasn't acknowledged is that "People like me" can enjoy Jazz as well.

 I'm not a 'Jazz-lover" ...but I can dance to it or enjoy it.

 Can't say the same about most of those "Indie/Forger" games.

- Ed C.

Umm.. What? What are you saying here?

That you like jazz? Well, congratulations! Youve proven that people who like jazz like jazz, while people who dont like Forge games dont like Forge games...

Quote from: Settembrini@temple:
You just need to replace the indie. Because surely, you aren´t talking about FtA! or DeGenesis here, do you?

No, you´re talking about an aesthetic/design category, not a mode of publishing, correct?

Ok, point taken.

Ill try and steer clear of the term "indie" to help fascilitate a better discussion.

Quote from: SettembriniHuh?

It´s important because if number 2) is answered negatively, the whole IPR-bag viral marketing of "certain style of games" would be a propagandistic lie.

How so? WHat the game actualy does at the table is wholly dependant on the players, no? I mean, the game certainly cant play itself, and if I choose to play a game a certain way nobody (except my fellow players) is in a position to stop me are they?

So I dont understand the complaint.

Quote from: David RWhere? I mean seriously, where did you make this point. You mentioned story/thematic games...told us why you like DitV, but where exactly did you say, that the intergration of rules and themes were not the sole domain of indie games. You mentioned something about games designed to be about something and then dove right into DitV.



I dunno, it seemed important enough for you to start a thread about games being about something. Is it such a stretch that when the dscussion gets rolling the claim is tested?

Regards,
David R

1. Right where I said that not only Forge (formerly indie) games can be about something.

2. Games on their own do nothing.
Players need to play the games for anything to happen.
Players can play games any way they damn well please.
If you play Forge games in other ways than the way they where designed to play, the games break down.
Broken games are not fun to play.
To have fun with Forge games, you play according to the design philosophy.

I think thats pretty obvious, actually.

Quote...Broken games are not fun to play.
To have fun with Forge games, you "must" play according to the design philosophy.

I think thats pretty obvious, actually.

Mind my edit. It's the inserted, bolded word, but I think you implied this strongly.



This is a tacit admission of something important.

Quote from: Temple1. Right where I said that not only Forge (formerly indie) games can be about something.

No, you said all games can be about something and some games (Forge games I assume because you didn't give any trad examples) were designed to be about something.

Quote2. Games on their own do nothing.
Players need to play the games for anything to happen.
Players can play games any way they damn well please.

Yeah, this is pretty obvious.

QuoteIf you play Forge games in other ways than the way they where designed to play, the games break down.
Broken games are not fun to play.
To have fun with Forge games, you play according to the design philosophy.

I think thats pretty obvious, actually.

Really? I'm gonna get back to you on this...broken Forge games...somewhere Uncle Ron feels a distrubance in the force...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: TempleDItV is "about" how far you are willing to go for your beliefs. Are you willing to cut off the arm to save the body, is one of the phrases I believe the book uses.

Ok. So, the author expects that the game is about this theme. I can get it. That is common for theme-focused games (I prefer this term, because game might be independent and still traditional or universal, or it might be published by big house and alternative and or focused... so let's talk in more exact terms. They don't create false dichotomies and so do not lead to elitism and war.)

Quote from: TempleNow, it is completely possible to tella story about this same theme with another game. You could tell it using D&D or Qin: The Warring States for example.

Right. And if you are used to the system (so it runs somewhere in the background) it is pretty easy.

Quote from: TempleBut DitV takes that theme and integrates it into the rules. Through Raises and Sees the rules support the theme. Te game is "about something," and that something is the theme of "how far are you willing to go for what you believe in?"

Or, to be exact, the author belives that it is so. And maybe not only author. Lot of people expects that it is so. That theme-focused game is really and even through rules focused on the presented theme.

Just one question. What if it is not? How do you find out? Sometimes the lack of rule-support for the theme can be successfully covered by accompaying fluff. And it works! It works great for some players. Some players react well to the simple conditioning - you behave as intended = you will get your reward. Some hate it. Some like mechanical expression of social and psychical traits and processes, some don't. These games are choosing one approach. Approach working for some but not all players. I have no problem with that.

I've played DitV once and I didn't like it. (I like the idea of conflict resolution alone, but not the way it was incorporated to the game). I didn't like the theme either. But I can understand, why somebody prefer it. I've tried half-dozen of those focused-games only to return the more wider-scope games, because I and my friends prefere them better. We choose the theme ad hoc as the game continues and that brings yet another element of surprise and fun to us.

Quote from: TempleAs I said, any tradtional game can be played about that theme. But the games themselves arent "about something." They can be, but they arent from the beginning.

Yes. I agree, that traditional approach is to let players choose the theme themselves. That doesn't mean, that the product of the game will be about anything, but that "something" (theme) must be defined by the players in the course of the game.  Which suits some and not all of them. I respect the other approaches as long, as they respect mine. Does that make sense?