Quote from: sureshot;1011867Learn to read. I never said the entire set of rules of COC is what keeps people away from playing BRP. It's the sanity system. Many people don't want to run the risk of losing a character to insanity.  Even if it is a slow process. I think it's a bad assumption on their part and it seems to have colored some in the hobby opinion of the rpg and BRP to some extent...

As Baulderstone says actual insanity is pretty rare, in my CoC games most Investigators ended up dead long before they'd go insane.

CoC has to be among the most popular RPG systems of all time so I doubt your idea that insanity turned people off. I remember coming to CoC after years of D&D and I and my friends felt the high lethality and insanity were very much what made the game both fun and effective as a horror game.

Quote from: JeremyR;1011960Beyond that, it makes combat much smoother, surer. If you have a lot of hit points, they will get whittled away slowly. If you have a small fixed total, you can lose them all in one blow. Thanks to how defense works, it might literally take the same amount of attack rolls to kill the character in either system, but the ablative hit point system feels more heroic, because you know you probably aren't going to die right off.  Of course, in some genres, like horror, that's a negative, so Call of Cthulhu and BRP go together well.

Good analysis, yup. D&D hit points work well for heroic play. BRP hit points work great for gritty & horror play.

However, only D&D can do the transition thing where the movie starts with characters being mown down right and left (like the Klendathu Drop in Starship Troopers) but the survivors level up and gain greatly increased life expectancy.

Quote from: S'mon;1011779Most people like classes, levels, and inflating hit points?

Yes.  Because those are 'tangible' rewards.  They are the game in Role Playing Game.  It's basic psychology.

Quote from: Bren;1011708One reason BRP seems a lot less widespread than D&D is because Runequest, Basic Role -Playing,  Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer, Worlds of Wonder (including Superworld and Magic World), Elfquest, Hawkmoon, Ringworld are each labeled as a different game though they share very, very similar systems whereas the many iterations of D&D, some of which are not very similar to some other version, are all labeled Dungeons & Dragons.

This.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1011978HERO is another that has been impacted by questionable business decisions. First there was the near death of the game in the late 1990s (and the poorly received Fuzion system). Then a fairly successful revival in 2002 which was pretty remarkable considering that the game had been dormant around 5 years.
The timing and roll out of 6th edition was poorly handled across the board. They fractured the small but fanatical fan base and then failed to follow up with new product to support the new edition (most 6th ed products were just recycled 5th ed products). To top it off the new edition did little to draw in new blood as it looked even more intimidating than the prior edition. Last their timing was impeccable, they introduced an expensive RPG product just as the economy crashed.

Strangely GURPS did almost the same thing at about the same time although I think the 3rd / 4th split in the fan base was less damaging as GURPS hadn't gone through two prior splits and most agreed the game needed some revision (at least a good soild edit to round up all the optional rules).

Pretty much agree with above. I will say this both Gurps and Hero failed to release a new edition that would attract new blood into both systems imo. For some odd reason bought thought it was simply a matter better production values. Full color, hardcover, glossy paper and that's all it takes. When some expected either more rules light or at least some kind of major change. Many who used to play both no longer wanted to deal with the complexity and crunchiness especially when we have more rules lights options available. When both companies focus only on their fanbase and do nothing to bring in new fans or older dissatisfied fans it's not a recipe for success imo. Or if it is a success it's with rpgs like D&D and White Wolf rpgs. Those rpgs have a large enough fanbase to support editions that see little to no change. As I said if Gurps did not have Munchkin they would probably be in the same situation like Hero Games. It took almost five years or was it longer to FINALLY get the out of print 6E books on Drivethrurpg. It's one thing to no longer produce new books it's another to have the older books out of print, expensive to buy on Amazon etc the first book of the 6E core was going for 150+$. If it was me running the show first thing I would is make sure my 6E books would be available for POD. It's kind of hard to sell the Hero System when both the 5E and 6E core are both out of print and expensive to buy second hand. Even with PDF both 6E books are between 750-800 pages. It's the type of book where I prefer print because of it's size.

As for the economy tanking it played a part yet somehow even with that happening some not only survive yet also thrived during that time. It's too easy to use the economy as a reason for some rpg companies in trouble. More often than not when rpg companies use that as a reason it feels less like a reason and more as a excuse. A big parts to me at least and imo is the days of a rpg group putting up with major flaws in a rpgs are over. What I mean when it comes to Hero and Gurps why put up with with the complexity and crunchiness when other more rules light and less complex exist. Same reason why Palladium books is also just surviving and not thriving is Kevin is not fixing any flaws of the system. So the fans have moved on. What's worse with Palladium is nothing wrong with the core rules yet the guy who developed those rules plays a houseruled version of his own rules at cons. Yet their is nothing wrong with the rules.

Quote from: sureshot;1012118A big parts to me at least and imo is the days of a rpg group putting up with major flaws in a rpgs are over. What I mean when it comes to Hero and Gurps why put up with with the complexity and crunchiness when other more rules light and less complex exist.

Complexity and crunchiness aren't 'flaws' though, just style/taste... and I'd rather try to teach GURPS than Pathfinder.
So much comes down to fashion and marketing.... and people sticking with what's familiar... much more than what might be objectively better/worse about the rules.

The most popular RPGs in the world are The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, World of Warcraft, and The  Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Nothing tabletop comes close, so if you're wanting to know why the D&Disms dominate you had better look at videogame design and not the backwater of tabletop RPGs. They're making bank doing the same sort of design work that tabletop folks do, especially the WOW dev team, and then they turn it into something people actually want to shell out real money for on the regular and play for hours on end. If you're not paying attention to that scene, then your opinion on why X is more popular than Y in RPG design doesn't mean shit- and yes, for most tabletop RPG publishers, they are STILL better off junking their not-D&Ds and just reskinning/tweaking D&D to do what they want, and then charging real money for it. FFG gets away with it, and so can you.

Classes and levels are much more digestible for players than skill systems. Another thing benefiting class and level systems is that because D&D was the first blockbuster game that it created the language used around the games not only for the table top but computer gaming as well.

Quote Originally Posted by S'mon  View Post
Most people like classes, levels, and inflating hit points?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1012099Yes.  Because those are 'tangible' rewards.  They are the game in Role Playing Game.  It's basic psychology.

My players chase after experience points like they were candy. After every encounter they imediately want to know how many EXP they got. They can't wait to level up and unlock new k3wl pow3z.  The "game" is a big part of the fun for them. When I run a system like BRP which doesn't have those benchmark achievements, and doesn't provide the incremental rewards of watching the EXP meter climb it is just not as fun for them.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1012136Quote Originally Posted by S'mon  View Post
Most people like classes, levels, and inflating hit points?



My players chase after experience points like they were candy. After every encounter they imediately want to know how many EXP they got. They can't wait to level up and unlock new k3wl pow3z.  The "game" is a big part of the fun for them. When I run a system like BRP which doesn't have those benchmark achievements, and doesn't provide the incremental rewards of watching the EXP meter climb it is just not as fun for them.

My players are similar to yours. I think online we see a lot of self wanking about how they are "telling deep and immersive stories" and all of that bullshit but when I have seen games played either at the store level or con level, usually they are about playing a game and having fun via the game: getting cool shit, more powerful, loot, whatever. The intelligentsia like to talk about storytelling because they usually don't actually play games but just talk about games they may or may not have read.

Quote from: Ulairi;1012137My players are similar to yours. I think online we see a lot of self wanking about how they are "telling deep and immersive stories" and all of that bullshit but when I have seen games played either at the store level or con level, usually they are about playing a game and having fun via the game: getting cool shit, more powerful, loot, whatever. The intelligentsia like to talk about storytelling because they usually don't actually play games but just talk about games they may or may not have read.

Stores and cons may be the bulk of your experience but I would suggest that there are gaming groups that do not meet in stores.

Quote from: Ulairi;1012132Classes and levels are much more digestible for players than skill systems.

Got something to back that up or just assuming your preferences must be true for everyone?

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1012124...so if you're wanting to know why the D&Disms dominate you had better look at videogame design and not the backwater of tabletop RPGs.

That's the classic chicken-n-egg problem though isn't it?  D&D set the standard because it was first.  It became a massive fad and gained popularity, right before video games became very popular.  Video games took their cues on how to do things from D&D as it was already popular and well known.

So, is the fact that the approach is the most popular due strictly to D&D being first, or is really due strictly to people really preferring levels, classes, and all?  Of course, the reality is somewhere between, but the question of this  thread-drift is mostly about where reality lies between those.  I suspect it's pretty far toward the end of D&D was first - if Traveller or RuneQuest had been first, then I suspect video games and standard RPGs would have followed suit and stayed with skill-based.  (I do think something that handles increasing power would have followed, but we have plenty of examples of games that do exactly that.)

Hey, modern D&D (really started with 2e) is basically a merger between the two with classes, levels, and skills......lots and lots and lots of skills in some cases!  Someone mentioned WW games earlier in the thread and they're ostensibly skill-based, but really they have a class-like overlay, so something between is probably what most people want.

Quote from: David Johansen;1011726But if I had to make a serious guess it's the very low starting skills in RQ2 echoing down through the ages.  That game where you've got 15% to hit with a club.

I feel you're right.

In my experience I've had players recoil from CoC mechanics afterwards because of the massive whiff factor. And that's namely from % starting so low and GMs having difficulty adjudicating how to implement their rolls with mitigating +/-%. But it doesn't matter, first impressions are only everything so it becomes, "That game where you've got 15% to hit with a club."

Same whiff factor became an issue in DnD 5e design during its playtest phase as well. They decided to up the hit rate and bloat the HP. People wanna feel effective. Big money went into video games researching out the Skinner Box that'll make the medula oblongata spasm for that next treat. Simple manipulation of base desires works.

(Until it doesn't. And then you gotta chase the latest craze and discover what sort of stimulus nerve was satiated, and what forgotten one wasn't. Then you can guess why your customers became immune and are onto the next thing.)

CoC works because people like to watch things fall apart (like Jenga). So seeing PCs spiral out in an expected meat grinder is great for temporary kicks. Ask them to take that same system and "invest their stories!" into something that'll whiff a lot and then die suddenly? Nah, they'll play something else.

Just my observations.

Quote from: Ulairi;1012137My players are similar to yours. I think online we see a lot of self wanking about how they are "telling deep and immersive stories" and all of that bullshit but when I have seen games played either at the store level or con level, usually they are about playing a game and having fun via the game: getting cool shit, more powerful, loot, whatever. The intelligentsia like to talk about storytelling because they usually don't actually play games but just talk about games they may or may not have read.

How about completely cut out storytelling and forget all that side of it, and just look at roleplaying...you know the type of game it's supposed to be?  I can guarantee you there's people who actually play roleplaying games who just roleplay as their character without chasing level-ups or trying to craft some cool story.

Shocking I know...