Quote from: lukeAnd Levi, Claudius, et omnes: Come on, give a guy a break! If they get to make the rhetorical points, why can't we?!

Playing that card can make you look like an elitist jackass to the non-designers.  I don't think you are an elitist jackass, but that the danger you run going that route.

Quote from: jrientsPlaying that card can make you look like an elitist jackass to the non-designers.  I don't think you are an elitist jackass, but that the danger you run going that route.

Oh, never fear, I'm an elitist jack ass. And Swine and all that. I'm not looking for Gleichie's writing credentials. My point was that I think there are small press/small business/self-publishing realities he's blithely ignoring by talking big and full of bluster.

My money is where my mouth is.

BTW, that's GROSS, kids. (And that's not my full revenue for 2005).

I don't make a living from BW -- YET. This is a tough and competitive industry!

-L

Quote from: lukeYou wouldn't happen to do any custom builds for your firearms, would you? You wouldn't happen to sell anything at trade shows?

Of course not, it's a hobby not a job. I wouldn't sell any of my weapons.

Quote from: lukeHow about your day job? Do you work with small businesses? Or self-funded ventures?

As a matter of fact, yes to all the above a few years back. And if 37K was the gross that would have been the end of the business, and if it was the net- it still would have been a case of finding a real job.

You may be correct however that my expectations are too high for this industry.


You didn't answer my question about your games btw.

FWIW, Luke, I was just joshin' because we were just talking about that in another thread. :lol:

Quote from: gleichmanYou didn't answer my question about your games btw.

Quote from: gleichmanBeyond that, what kind of games do you publish?

Tabletop, pen and paper, traditional, character driven, fantasy and science fiction roleplaying games.

Why do you ask?
-L

Quote from: lukeOh, never fear, I'm an elitist jack ass. And Swine and all that.

Funny, you normally come off as a decent guy with some cool-looking games.

Quote from: gleichmanYou didn't answer my question about your games btw.

He published Burning Wheel a fantasy RPG, and Burning Empires a Sci-Fi game using the same basic system.

if that is what you were looking for.

Quote from: jrientsHe says indie sales are insignificant compared to the rest of the hobby.  I doubt anyone can accurately outline the sales dimensions of the hobby, so his claim seem almost as hard to prove.  Ken Hite's attempts are the best I've seen but even he admits there's a large amount of conjecture involved.

That's basically correct as such, but the burden of proof is not on me.

Levi made the claim that indie games are expanding while traditional companies are contracting. Therefore the burden is his, I can get by simplying saying I don't believe him (which I didn't) or with saying that from what I can see it lacks significance (which I did).

Basic debate 101. First person to assert something has to offer evidence. Something he should have done in the first post.

He didn't, so we'll all just shooting the breeze and killing time.

Quote from: McrowHe published Burning Wheel a fantasy RPG, and Burning Empires a Sci-Fi game using the same basic system.

if that is what you were looking for.

It was.

Quote from: jrientsFunny, you normally come off as a decent guy with some cool-looking games.

Yeah, but I figure over here I'm going to end up looking elitist and bastardish and swinish by comparison or default or something. You know, I actually LIKE rpg.net and indie-rpgs.com and story-games.com. Crazy, I know.

-L

Quote from: lukeTabletop, pen and paper, traditional, character driven, fantasy and science fiction roleplaying games.

Why do you ask?
-L

If one was to accept your claim to success in the field as a starting point, I was interested in what type of games produced (or were at least the subject of) this success.

Thanks for the answer.

Quote from: gleichmanLevi made the claim that indie games are expanding while traditional companies are contracting. Therefore the burden is his, I can get by simplying saying I don't believe him (which I didn't) or with saying that from what I can see it lacks significance (which I did).

Yup.

That Indie sales are increasing in a time when larger RPG companies are shrinking is pretty easy to prove.  

That it matters, less so.

Though, you know, I wouldn't mind testing that idea a bit more rigorously.

Brian, what would cause you personally to see it as significant?  What kind of data, generally?

Let's get some criteria here.

Quote from: RPGPunditNot really. "Indie" is one of those bullshit terms that you use to try to pretend that you're sticking it to the man, that you're against the system, violently opposed to teatime, or whatever.

Um?  OK, so presumably the correct term for a independently self-published RPG is "bullshit RPG which RPGPundit doesn't like because it doesn't have big sales"?  Do you suppose we could simply shorten that down to "indie" -- and then you could just save some typing by saying for short "indie RPGs suck"?  :-)  

Quote from: RPGPunditThere's only one real Industry in RPGs, and that's Wizards.  Then there are a few second-tier hangers-on like White Wolf, Steve Jackson, Palladium and maybe even Green Ronin or Mongoose these days; and then EVERYTHING else is amateur. There's just the amateurs who want to pretend to be Pros, and the amateurs who want to pretend to be Avant-Garde Rebels.

There seem to be word issues here again.  Let me give an example:  So, the Mediterranean restaurant down the street for me is only a single establishment.  It is not an "industry", and its business is several billion times smaller than McDonald's.  However, they have done good business for years, make good food which I like to eat, and as far as I know are making a reasonable living for themselves.  I agree they are not the "industry", but I wouldn't call them "amateur".  

Similarly, I am fine with calling a hobby author like Ben Lehman "amateur".  On the other hand, there are people like Steve Jackson, Greg Stolze, Ken Hite and others who make their livings writing games without being a part of the dominant "industry".  

Personally, I don't give a shit about the amateur/professional divide.  I have no desire to "stick it to the Man" or whatever bullshit strawman you come up with -- but sometimes I like to eat at the high-quality local restaurant or even (gasp) a home-cooked meal in addition to my regular McDonalds visits.  By the same token, among games I usually play semi-mainstream games like Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, and True20 -- but I also play small-press games like Amber, indie games like Polaris, and even homebrew games which aren't published at all.  

If this makes me a pretentious Avante Garde bullshitter, so be it.

Quote from: jhkimDo you suppose we could simply shorten that down to "indie" -- and then you could just save some typing by saying for short "indie RPGs suck"?  :-)  

:emot-flowers:

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBrian, what would cause you personally to see it as significant?  What kind of data, generally?

Let's get some criteria here.

Levi stole my next question.  I think he's copying off my paper.