Quote from: gleichmanI'd be more impressed if that was net. Actually I wouldn't be impressed at all now that I consider it.

I'm having one of those "So what have you written?" moments.

Somebody slap me.

EDIT: Aw.  Luke gave in to the urge.

You know, thinking about this, gaming companies have been rising and falling for a long time (there's been some definite issues in the past year, I think we can all admit that).  There was a time when Palladium and White Wolf were the new kids on the block, and could post (were there message boards in those days) numbers of impressive growth in sales coming from these young upstarts.  The thing is, this time, as other companies fall or shrink, we have the technology that allows small-market companies and one-man shows to put those products on pdf or POD, and we have built up online communities that allow for more immediate access and networking with fans and potential buyers.  I would hestiate to attribute the success to anything other than a lot of really talented people taking advantage of newer technologies to share their creations with the world.  Which is still really all sorts of cool, when you think about it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenEDIT: Aw.  Luke gave in to the urge.

Kinda sad, huh?  If only he had read that thread!  Anyway, no one has to prove anything to Mr. Gleichman.  He says indie sales are insignificant compared to the rest of the hobby.  I doubt anyone can accurately outline the sales dimensions of the hobby, so his claim seem almost as hard to prove.  Ken Hite's attempts are the best I've seen but even he admits there's a large amount of conjecture involved.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm having one of those "So what have you written?" moments.

Somebody slap me.

EDIT: Aw.  Luke gave in to the urge.

I haven't written anything and I was thing "dude, what the hell have you written?":confused:

Lukes numbers are impressive in todays RPG market. There are only a hand full of publishers that net $100k or more a year.

For anyone other than that hand full, it is pretty impressive if you can make 10k net.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm having one of those "So what have you written?" moments.

Hmmm.  Perhaps this is a good time to crosslink to your 'On "designer entitlement"' thread:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1699

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm having one of those "So what have you written?" moments.

Somebody slap me.

EDIT: Aw.  Luke gave in to the urge.

Slaad--> :pimpdahoe: <-- Levi
Slaad--> :pimpdahoe: <-- Luke

Quote from: lukeOh, snap!

You self-publish, Gleichie? Whaddya do for hobbies?

Self-publish? Nope, I can't imagine anyone paying for anything that I'd write.

I'm real fond of firearms. And of course RPGs. And Reading, I like reading.

And I know enough about economics and logic to identify an antidotal smokescreen of insignificant scale when I see it.


Beyond that, what kind of games do you publish?

Quote from: McrowI haven't written anything and I was thing "dude, what the hell have you written?":confused:

I know.  It's still bad arguing.  

But the point there - Luke made more than my base income on his game in a year. - is totally solid.

Personally, I call that professional.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI know.  It's still bad arguing.  

But the point there - Luke made more than my base income on his game in a year. - is totally solid.

Personally, I call that professional.

the numbers will be even better next time around with BE doing well.

I think that if you can make a living from what you publish (if you could support yourself), you count as a pro. This however doesen't reflect one way or the other on the quality of products. Some excellent games don't sell as well as they should and some bad games sell way more than they should.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBut the point there - Luke made more than my base income on his game in a year. - is totally solid.

Is his figure gross (as he said and Brian assumed) or net (as others are assuming)?

(And don't forget that those who are self-employed have to pay all of their social security taxes and so forth themselves.)

Quote from: John MorrowIs his figure gross (as he said and Brian assumed) or net (as others are assuming)?

I make 20K Canadian at my job, annually.  So, doesn't matter.

Of course, my lifestyle is so damn weird that many people don't believe me when I tell them how I live.

Well, I will chime in. I am not indie (or so Ron has told me and I would trust him to know ) but I definitely qualify as small press. Over the five years HinterWelt has been running we have grown our sales by finding nontraditional sale streams. Things like online sales and diorect con sales are no-brainers. I developed a network of retailers and a web-based sales tool that is a bit different. It supports consignment and instant payment and various other terms that I know work for retailers.

So, I do not know if the "indie" market is growing but HinterWelt has been doing o.k. despite the woes of larger companies. An interesting note, our traditional distribution has been flat while other routes have grown.

As for "my company made more money than last year" as an argument for industry growth, I have to go with others on this, that is not indicative. It is great though, as it means you are doing things right and growing your company. The trick is to plan now for the when the curve flattens.

Bill

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'm having one of those "So what have you written?" moments.

Somebody slap me.

EDIT: Aw.  Luke gave in to the urge.

Quote from: gleichmanI'm real fond of firearms. And of course RPGs. And Reading, I like reading.

You wouldn't happen to do any custom builds for your firearms, would you? You wouldn't happen to sell anything at trade shows?

How about your day job? Do you work with small businesses? Or self-funded ventures?

I already said that my numbers are miniscule, but I also think your perspective is out of whack. I could site other "anecdotal evidence"* to bolster my claim, but like I said, it doesn't do any good in rhetoric.

And Levi, Claudius, et omnes: Come on, give a guy a break! If they get to make the rhetorical points, why can't we?!

-L

*AKA facts -- you know, numbers, dates, figures, reportings, yadda, yadda.

PS I love the "audited financial institutions" crack. Keep dreaming, my man!

Quote from: lukeAnd Levi, Claudius, et omnes: Come on, give a guy a break! If they get to make the rhetorical points, why can't we?!

Because we're the ones with something to prove to the snarling masses.

And on those occasions that we do, the really surly ones wander off to sulk, while the rest of the masses play and skip and dance in the sunlight of the facts that we provide to them.

Also, it causes rainbows and makes puppies happy.