Quote from: FeanorIt's ironic, because you are one of the reasons I'm now "settled" here. The information on your site, and your insight, was very helpful to me in sorting some things out. Your breakdowns and methods could grow into a serious response that provides "indie" gaming with an alternative theory approach; unpretentious, simple, straightforward ideas to improve research and design.  If you agree with the position that a thriving "indie" sector could help breath life into the overall industry, any competition in thoery is liable to be good for indie, and therefore, the industry.

I agree with you on this point, but I can't agree that this is the site for such an effort.

I was at the Forge from day one, longer than Clinton in fact (at least as far as the published record goes). It started out as unmoderated as this site currently is.

But it too had an site owner with a ego larger then his intellect. One who insisted on slamming other theory concepts and other games. Their first action too was a "request" to posters to alter their subject choice, to match their vision of what a theory forum should be. RPGPundit is a one to one match to the Forge in every single way, except he's open about his contempt for everyone that isn't him.

Oh he hasn't gotten around to editing people's posts to make his side look better yet (to be fair to the Forge, they only pulled that trick once as far as I know). Nor has he started banning anyone or locking threads. This much is currently true.

But his promises on this line are identical to those of the eary Forge. Identical to a younger RPGNet. And I trust them no further.

If he holds to them, it will be for one reason only- because this site doesn't draw enough traffic for it to matter. In fact judging from what I see in 'current active users', the traffic is about half of my last visit. So it appears he'll have little trouble in the forseeable future.

I do wish there was a forum free from moderation and the influence of people like Ron and Pundit. It would be nice to see something besides Forge theory when one is online.

Pehaps some day we'll see such a forum, or perhaps some day someone rational will take over one of the existing ones.

Hm, let's see how much Geekkake's post adds to my sig:

Edit.  Too much sadly.  Sigh.

The problem with the sandwich analogy comes when one of the two groups starts making disparaging comments about the other (see "how Americans are defined" as Exhibit A).

Now: I didn't read that and explode with rage. In fact, I still think the analogy is a reasonably valid one.

However, we need to extend the analogy to make it more solid: groups on both sides of the HAC and PB&J line are sniping at each other--there's a LOT of bad behavior. Playing victim (PB&J ruined my lunches until I switched to HAC). Questionable accusations (HAC is ruining the Jiffy plants world Wide!!). Plain old superiority (PB&J is fine ... if you like it ... HAC is for a more refined pallet so it's not surprising most PB&J'ers don't ... but most non-sand witch guys will when they try it), and so on.

In the dialog there are people who are quite fine with this level of sniping and perpetuate it for whatever reason.

I'm okay with the analogy so long as it expands to include the level of heat in the discussion. As someone who *was* put off by the 90's White-Wolf guys I ran into, I do think that encouraging that attitude in gamer circles *is* actually harmful.

I don't know if it's harmful to the industry--but it could certainly turn me off (I ran the HS D&D club and heard it denounced as a bunch of stupid hack-n-slashers back in the mid-80's. This has been around a long time).

-Marco

Quote from: gleichmanBut it too had an site owner with a ego larger then his intellect. One who insisted on slamming other theory concepts and other games. Their first action too was a "request" to posters to alter their subject choice, to match their vision of what a theory forum should be. RPGPundit is a one to one match to the Forge in every single way, except he's open about his contempt for everyone that isn't him.

You say that like it wasn't a very big difference. It is. Intellectual honesty is a big difference. I'm blatantly open about who and what I hate.

QuoteOh he hasn't gotten around to editing people's posts to make his side look better yet (to be fair to the Forge, they only pulled that trick once as far as I know). Nor has he started banning anyone or locking threads. This much is currently true.

But his promises on this line are identical to those of the eary Forge. Identical to a younger RPGNet. And I trust them no further.

Yet I plan to keep my promises. In the time I've been in charge here I've yet to ban anyone, lock any threads, or edit anyone's posts.

QuoteIf he holds to them, it will be for one reason only- because this site doesn't draw enough traffic for it to matter. In fact judging from what I see in 'current active users', the traffic is about half of my last visit. So it appears he'll have little trouble in the forseeable future.

Actually, our active users and traffic continue to rise.  I was a little worried for a few days about a week back, when we had an unusual downturn in traffic, but it turned out to be a blip.

QuoteI do wish there was a forum free from moderation and the influence of people like Ron and Pundit. It would be nice to see something besides Forge theory when one is online.

Pehaps some day we'll see such a forum, or perhaps some day someone rational will take over one of the existing ones.

Someone like you? Please. You're at least as big an egomaniac and attention whore as either me or Edwards. You're just way more pathetic about it, Eeyore.

RPGPundit

Quote from: gleichmanI agree with you on this point, but I can't agree that this is the site for such an effort.

I could see how it might be inferred, but I did not mean to imply, that this was the one place that non-forge theories could grow to the benefit of everyone.

Pundit my be an egotistical prick.  Hell, I've been accused of the same at various points in my adult life. The question of whether or not this place will turn into a high school cafeteria remains to be seen. Irascible Prick or Really Nice Guy, I'll take him at his word that he will not stifle conversations that go against his view of the gaming world. I've seen the Really Nice Guy in the cafeteria become something akin to a cult leader. Perhaps it's better to trust the Prick for now...

Regardless, I think that we could really push the development of alternate theories and we'd get no interference from Pundit.  Why not take some of the information in your writings and use it to spawn some theory threads here? Perhaps some indie games would be developed based on those ideas and the indie game sector could grow even more.

Or you could wait for others to beg even more...

Quote from: FeanorI could see how it might be inferred, but I did not mean to imply, that this was the one place that non-forge theories could grow to the benefit of everyone.

I'm glad you have that view; for this is the last place we'll see solid non-Forge theories grow.

I'm very willing to accept a invite to another site with a light-handed moderation approach. If any should appear, shoot me a note as I"ll likely be unaware of them otherwise. The old rec.games.frp.advocacy newsgroup would even seem to work, it's basically empty currently and that's the role it used to fill.

I'm willing to take part in what you suggest, but not on this site with its current management (nor of course the Forge).

Quote from: RPGPunditYou say that like it wasn't a very big difference. It is. Intellectual honesty is a big difference. I'm blatantly open about who and what I hate.

The problem is that in the process, you manage to be quite the lawn-crapper yourself.  Your language and opinions don't particularly give the hobby or message board a welcoming or family friendly face.  

In our little tangent about Che Guevara, you mentioned that you though he was a good revolutionary but bad at actually governing.  You position yourself as a revolutionary like Guevara, which leaves open the question of whether you have the temperment to govern in the long run.

As for being open about things, do you think it would really make the traditional lawn-crapper that you complain about any more palatable if they were simply blatantly open about their lack of bathing and poor social skills?  Or is the lack of bathing and the poor social skills the real problem and the denial and lack of honesty about it a secondary concern?

Honesty is nice but honesty isn't the only issue.

I will, however, give you credit for not banning anyone, not locking threads, and not altering messages.  So far so good in that regard.  But I also find it a sad commentary on the state of role-playing message boards that behaving that way is so worthy of notice.

QuoteBut I also find it a sad commentary on the state of role-playing message boards that behaving that way is so worthy of notice.

Sad isn't it?
Freedom is the first victim of human vices. Thus I laud and applaud Pundit`s vices, as they happen to encourage freedom. This is a seldom and precious thing.

Quote from: SettembriniSad isn't it?
Freedom is the first victim of human vices. Thus I laud and applaud Pundit`s vices, as they happen to encourage freedom. This is a seldom and precious thing.

It's a sick world that would ever applaud vice.

You guys are so fucking philosophical it leaves me dumbfounded!

Quote from: gleichmanIt's a sick world that would ever applaud vice.

  It's a dead world that doesn't constantly try to create new forms of vice.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's a dead world that doesn't constantly try to create new forms of vice.

Virtue <> Death, and while life is drawn to vice- that is no cause to glorify temptation but is instead is all the more reason to reject it.

It is precisely because life is drawn to vice that life is worth living.  Otherwise all there is to existence is a comfort zone.

Quote from: gleichmanIt's a sick world that would ever applaud vice.

Yet it goes on in the real world every goddamn day.

Welcome to the human race.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt is precisely because life is drawn to vice that life is worth living.

I have no doubt you believe this is true for you. Pity that.