Burning Wheel's first year out, 2003, it sold 289 copies.

2004 it sold 731 copies.

2005 it sold 1500 copies.

I doubled units sold and revenues year on year for three years in a row. This sales figures are not massive by any means. Mutants and Masterminds 1e sold at least 60-70K copies. But on the other hand, Weapons of the Gods did an initial printing of 5K. I doubt they've reprinted -- those units will probably last them the life of the book.

I also participate in a booth at Gencon every year that hosts a collection of small press/indie game designers. You can see the numbers for 2003-2006 here. Again, these numbers are not massive, but they do show a significant increase of both units sold and revenue year on year.

-Luke

Quote from: RPGPunditSome of this same prosletyzing in the real world might lead some poor game store owner to be badgered into ordering copies of Dogs In The Vinyard or My Life With Master to sell alongside products that, you know, normal people actually want to buy.  Doing this on a significant scale will usually lead to the closure of said gaming store shortly thereafter.

I ran a demo of Dogs at a local store; I brought along copies of the game, and told them they could keep the profits if I sold any.

I sold seven copies in three hours.

The writer of Dogs has been approached by Mongoose, because they wanted to publish his game under their imprint.  It wasn't a good move, money-wise.

As an independent publisher, I don't get Luke's sales - mine are in the hundreds of books each year, not thousands. What I have seen, though, which is just totally not the way RPGs are traditionally sold: I sell more of each book each year. I released a game called Donjon in 2002. I sold more of it this year than I did in 2002. The Shadow of Yesterday has sold 1.5 times as many copies this year than it did by September of last year.

For the sales curve to go up year after year instead of down is a complete reversal of what we've seen before in publishing.

Quote from: RPGPunditWTF?

Is this part of that whole convoluted reasoning that you guys were all made to accept by the Leader Ron so that his personal favourite game, Heroquest, would be considered "indie" even though no sane person would say it is?

Well, that seems to be a trick question -- though I'm not sure if it's because you're intentionally displaying your ignorance or because you're trying to make some point.  I don't consider HeroQuest to be independent, ergo your question is pointless.  

Do you have a definition of an "independent game" other than "creator owned and controlled" which stands up to scrutiny?  If so, I'd love to hear it.

Quote from: Clinton R. NixonAs an independent publisher, I don't get Luke's sales - mine are in the hundreds of books each year, not thousands.

I could render a guess. But some who know my not-so-secret identity might consider me biased.

Quote from: lukeBurning Wheel's first year out, 2003, it sold 289 copies.

2004 it sold 731 copies.

2005 it sold 1500 copies.

I doubled units sold and revenues year on year for three years in a row. This sales figures are not massive by any means. Mutants and Masterminds 1e sold at least 60-70K copies. But on the other hand, Weapons of the Gods did an initial printing of 5K. I doubt they've reprinted -- those units will probably last them the life of the book.

You've managed to highlite some data that end up making a good point: Its not that indie games are on a huge rise, its that the bulk of the so-called "industry" (ie. the people who like to pretend that they're actually insiders and part of the industry because they have a three or four-man company and produce using traditional methods of print and distribution) are actually dead in the water, and are no more "industry" than the Indie companies.

You've managed to demonstrate, with your figures, that you are a successful amateur game writer, and that so is Rebecca Borgrstrom.  The only difference is you realize that you are an outsider from the real industry (hence "indie"), and she likes to imagine that she's part of the "Bigwigs" who have influence.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SettembriniYepp. But Internet is an important medium.

Well, that's what the Internet keeps telling to itself, at least.

Quote from: jhkimDo you have a definition of an "independent game" other than "creator owned and controlled" which stands up to scrutiny?  If so, I'd love to hear it.

Not really. "Indie" is one of those bullshit terms that you use to try to pretend that you're sticking it to the man, that you're against the system, violently opposed to teatime, or whatever.

Its an attempt to position one's self in the "counterculture". As opposed to those who want desperately to be a part of the "industry" and consider themselves as People With Influence, unlike you Indie people who want to consider yourselves Rebellious Hipsters.

Its all just nonsense.
There's only one real Industry in RPGs, and that's Wizards.  Then there are a few second-tier hangers-on like White Wolf, Steve Jackson, Palladium and maybe even Green Ronin or Mongoose these days; and then EVERYTHING else is amateur. There's just the amateurs who want to pretend to be Pros, and the amateurs who want to pretend to be Avant-Garde Rebels.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou've managed to demonstrate, with your figures, that you are a successful amateur game writer, and that so is Rebecca Borgrstrom.  The only difference is you realize that you are an outsider from the real industry (hence "indie"), and she likes to imagine that she's part of the "Bigwigs" who have influence.

RPGPundit

hopefully, you are using amateur in the sense that this is not what Luke does for his primary income (ussuming that is true)and are not refering to the level of his writing ability.

He is every bit as good as the guys @ WotC and other large publishers.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou've managed to highlite some data that end up making a good point: Its not that indie games are on a huge rise, its that the bulk of the so-called "industry" are actually dead in the water,

plus blah, blah, blah

 

Actually, I've managed, with my meddlesome, bothersome facts, to demonstrate actual growth in the segment of the industry in question from the OP.

I know, I know facts aren't part of rhetoric and I'm almost ashamed to bring them here to the land of rhetoric, but I can only go with what I know.

I do agree with your assertion that the majority of print, tabletop rpg companies are struggling at the moment. We've seen signs all over: Green Ronin, Palladium and Guardians of Order have all flashed the blinking red light of doom at one point or another this year. And that's just this year!

Where is the dividing line between amateur and pro? I make no claims to pro status, but if Rebecca isn't a pro-lancer, who is? Look at the raw numbers, too: BWR brought in $37500 in gross revenue for me last year, which is a living wage in most parts of this country. I'll bet that's more than Rebecca or many others make freelancing. So where's the dividing line?

-L

Quote from: RPGPunditWTF?

Is this part of that whole convoluted reasoning that you guys were all made to accept by the Leader Ron so that his personal favourite game, Heroquest, would be considered "indie" even though no sane person would say it is?

What the hell?  Some guys in a basement form a two or three man outfit and crank out a hit despite not getting a sidelong glance from the already extant industry?  How dare they call them independant!

Quote from: One Horse TownI can't be very snark sensitive then, 'cos i haven't seen anything to suggest that yet.

Then again, that's the potential problem with cross board posting...

And the snark was only in the first few posts. It rapidly got better, which surprised me. Not typical for RPGNet posts...

-mice

Quote from: lukeActually, I've managed, with my meddlesome, bothersome facts, to demonstrate actual growth in the segment of the industry in question from the OP.

No.

You're provide an uncomfirmed (i.e. not from an independent source such as an audited financial) assertion of a single small business example. I'm afraid that isn't proof of anything let alone market trends or significance.

Quote from: lukeLook at the raw numbers, too: BWR brought in $37500 in gross revenue for me last year, which is a living wage in most parts of this country.

I'd be more impressed if that was net. Actually I wouldn't be impressed at all now that I consider it.

Quote from: flyingmiceAnd the snark was only in the first few posts. It rapidly got better, which surprised me. Not typical for RPGNet posts...

-mice

A False Snark Alarm, as it were....

Quote from: gleichmanI'd be more impressed if that was net. Actually I wouldn't be impressed at all now that I consider it.

Oh, snap!

You self-publish, Gleichie? Whaddya do for hobbies?

-L