Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhat I was trying to get across was that I can disagree with people on my things, even fundamental things, and still enjoy and learn from what they have to say.  

I try to figure how they're looking at it, and see what they see, and off we go.

If only that was how everyone reacted. Unfortunately, it seems like a great deal of people take disagreement on preferred entertainment to be a disparagement of their character. At least in America, where your consumption habits define you as a person.

Quote from: GeekkakeIf only that was how everyone reacted. Unfortunately, it seems like a great deal of people take disagreement on preferred entertainment to be a disparagement of their character. At least in America, where your consumption habits define you as a person.

Ummm...excuse me? Talk about a condescending, holier than thou, ham and cheese comment...

Quote from: ImperatorHi, Pundit. I'm addressing two important points:

No, it doesn't. What it says is this (emphasis mine):

Quote from: Original GNS EssayMy straightforward observation of the activity of role-playing is that many participants do not enjoy it very much. Most role-players I encounter are tired, bitter, and frustrated. My goal in this writing is to provide vocabulary and perspective that enable people to articulate what they want and like out of the activity, and to understand what to look for both in other people and in game design to achieve their goals. The person who is entirely satisfied with his or her role-playing experiences is not my target audience.

Look! He's not talking to you! He's not trying to change your gaming!

Fixed your emphasis for you.

He's not suggesting that there's a tiny minority of gamers who incorrectly got involved in RPGs thinking they were something other than what they are. He's suggesting that the majority of gamers in fact wanted RPGs to be different then what they are but were too stupid to change it until he came along to bring his wisdom to his intellectual inferiors.

You can't say "most gamers are miserable" and essentially posit that the majority of gamers hate what they're doing, and then dismiss that by saying "if you're perfectly happy then this doesn't apply to you (but you're really in a tiny tiny minority and in fact are probably either lying to yourself about your happiness or too stupid to realize you're miserable)".

QuoteActually, the essay goes a long way to say that there's no "one true way" and the fun obtained in a D&D session is as good as the fun in an OtE session, being the most important thing that everybody is in the same page. Not very offensive, IMO.  

I find the idea that the way I run games and enjoy games is "incoherent" and "dysfunctional play" to be pretty fucking insulting.

QuoteAs I've shown before, the essay states that the unfun gaming is not due to playing a trad game. Is due to a difference in what people wants from the game, which can lead to bad social dynamics. The point of GNS is that a good design of a game will help people to be on the same page, so the experience will be improved. So people don't need to stop playing traditional games, according to GNS essay.

His premise supposes that most traditional games are either only good at doing one thing, or that they're "incoherent", and that to make better games you have to make very focused microgames that only try to support one "style of play".  Which I find about as sensible as arguing that most people get some brief pleasure out of playing hopscotch so we should cut everyone's left leg off at the knee.

QuoteOn the other hand, Edwards uses as examples of good (or coherent) design several classic games as Pendragon, RQ, Prince Valiant or... D&D.

And in the process backhandedly denigrates these games by insinuating that they're only really good at one thing. While he insults other games and the way gamers actually play games like D&D by implying that they're trying to do something that you can't do with that game (or indeed with any game), even though most of us do it all the fucking time.

QuoteThe brain damage thing is not in any way in the GNS essay, pertains to a completely different topic, and well, it doesn't refer to the gamers in general, only to a subsector of gamers.

It was the logical end result of the majority of gamers rejecting his theory. He had to say that gamers are mostly brain-damaged (except the ones who've received GNS "therapy") because that is the only way he can explain why they'd reject GNS without having to admit that GNS is wrong.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIt was the logical end result of the majority of gamers rejecting his theory. He had to say that gamers are mostly brain-damaged (except the ones who've received GNS "therapy") because that is the only way he can explain why they'd reject GNS without having to admit that GNS is wrong.

So much for not talking about GNS. Not exactly unexpected.

Quote from: FeanorUmmm...excuse me? Talk about a condescending, holier than thou, ham and cheese comment...

Some clarification, please. Which part of the statement do you take exception to?

Probably the broad generalization about America, but it's so far from being relevant to this discussion that I think we'd all be best off if the two of you hashed it out via PM.

To riff off of Geekkake's original post, there's also the element that people just tend to be naturally enthusiastic about what they like.  And often they forget to temper that enthusiasm with a context outside of their own experience.  

This isn't unique to gaming.  Just look at threads about music, for example.  Someone will start a thread, saying that they'd like to hear something new to them, and then they list some bands they like.  There's going to be a significant amount of replies that don't really give suggestions based on the context of what the original poster said they liked in music.  

It's not that these people making the suggestions are intentionally being jerks by suggesting music that's not what the original poster wanted.  It's just that they're really, really fond of the music they're suggesting and they don't quite conceptualize that someone else might not dig it as much or at all.  

Likewise in gaming, you can often get people suggesting things that are totally off from what someone actually wants.  

If someone posts that they like to read sword and sorcery books, they like playing D&D, but that they're looking for someone that's more akin to the book they're reading, I could suggest that they pick up Sorcerer & Sword.

But I don't think that's what this hypothetical poster would really want, based on what they said about liking D&D.  There's every chance that they might find Sorcerer & Sword to their liking -- hell, there's every chance I might if I could actually make full sense of Sorcerer in the first place -- bu there's every chance that it'll just strike them as being a completely obtuse recommendation.

But, hey, it goes both ways.  This isn't just a thing that people do with indie games.  It's just that more trad gamers just notice it more when it's something outside of their liking.  I've likewise seem people recommend 3.5 and HERO to people who clearly don't want or need that sort of fiddle 'n' crunch.

What's my point here?  Shit, I don't know.  I'm just killing a few minutes before my special lady friend gets here.

Quote from: RPGPunditI find the idea that the way I run games and enjoy games is "incoherent" and "dysfunctional play" to be pretty fucking insulting.

The only person who has said that you are playing dysfunctionally is you. If you're not, what's the problem?

I read Ron's stuff, went oh yeah, I remember doing that, oh yeah, illusionism, know it well, hmmm, yeah, I have seen a bunch of crap play but that's not us, at least not all the time....

It's called ego. You should get one.

Quote from: gleichmanSo much for not talking about GNS. Not exactly unexpected.

I never said it couldn't be talked about; I said it wasn't meant to be talked about in the Theory section of this forum.  This is the general roleplaying section, where shitting on the Forge (or trying to defend it, if you're of that persuasion) is acceptable.

And so much for "Im leaving forever... again".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd so much for "Im leaving forever... again".

I didn't say forever, just that I wasn't interested for any length of time in a site ran by the likes of yourself, a hypocritical idiot doesn't appeal to me.

You owe this visit to John Kim's journal, I wanted to check out the realism thread. I like the general subject, but good grief that was boring tripe from you- although as usual there some nice points by others.

Quote from: GeekkakeAt least in America, where your consumption habits define you as a person.

How about that one...

EDIT: Sorry Elliot - responded in anger before I saw your what-seemed-on-it's-face-as-sage advice.

However, this is exactly the kind of down-the-nose condescending remark that gets peoples' hackles up. It's the attitude that turns alot of people off of Indie/Forge/whatever new game. I started out looking for theory to investigate an idea I had..ended up at The Forge..and found what looked like a high school cafeteria.  It turned me off of the entire idea.

Now the more I've read (here, ironically!), the more I think some implementations of different games that may (or may not have been) forge-spawned might be an interesting take on gaming. But continuing to put up with that kind of holier-than-thou stuff is just going cause the bozo bit to be flipped....again...

Quote from: FeanorHowever, this is exactly the kind of down-the-nose condescending remark that gets peoples' hackles up. It's the attitude that turns alot of people off of Indie/Forge/whatever new game. I started out looking for theory to investigate an idea I had..ended up at The Forge..and found what looked like a high school cafeteria.  It turned me off of the entire idea.

I had the exact same reaction to RPGPundit.

Quote from: GeekkakeWhat the fuck kind of industry would RPGs be if it was only D20 with different settings? It'd be the strong-arm communist shithole of entertainment.

Congratulations, Sentence! You are now my Sig!

Quote from: GeekkakeWhat the fuck kind of industry would RPGs be if it was only D20 with different settings? It'd be the strong-arm communist shithole of entertainment.

RPGs are games. Games are entertainment. Entertainment is a fucking subjective thing. I like getting drunk as entertainment, you might not. You might like watching Buffy as entertainment, I hate that goddamned show. We're not talking about the fucking foundation of civilization, we're talking about nerd games where you and a bunch of guys pretend to be fucking elves or whatever.

The Professor is just as guilty of being a closed-minded, loud-mouthed, pretentious bastard as the "Swine" he fulminates and hurls invective upon.  He claims to know what gamers want. He claims to know what's best for the industry. He's setting himself up as the same goddamned Oracle of Gaming that the Swine claim to be, only he's on the other side of the fence, out in D20 country.

You should know better. For all your claims that the Swine are trying to "take away your game" or somehow seize your ability to play a certain way, you're trying to do the same thing to them.

Wordy McFucking Word.I like some of the opinions of the Pundit a lot, and I think he's square right in many of his points. But he loses me every time he starts doing everything he accuses others of doing, and doing it far bigger and worst.

Quote from: gleichmanI had the exact same reaction to RPGPundit.

I'm not here to defend anyone, so I won't bite on that. You are, of course, free to state that here, which is one difference between here and the aforementioned high school cafeteria.

It's ironic, because you are one of the reasons I'm now "settled" here. The information on your site, and your insight, was very helpful to me in sorting some things out. Your breakdowns and methods could grow into a serious response that provides "indie" gaming with an alternative theory approach; unpretentious, simple, straightforward ideas to improve research and design.  If you agree with the position that a thriving "indie" sector could help breath life into the overall industry, any competition in thoery is liable to be good for indie, and therefore, the industry.