Quote from: Abyssal MawI can only conclude that the aside of "oh, this really only applies if you are unhappy.."  is dishonest.

Let me be plain, on this one.

From what I've seen, much of Ron's stuff could benefit from a big-ass line at the top saying "WHO THIS IS FOR."

Because, yeah, people apply this shit all over the place.  It has become dishonest to say that 'this isn't for you.'

There are a lot of incidents where something that was meant to get applied really narrowly, and works like a hot damn in that specific place basically escapes into the hands of asshats, and gets tried out in all sorts of other places (often including ones where it's a really stupid idea).

I say this as one such asshat - I've latched onto the idea of "stakes", and applied it all over the damn place, in ways that don't match the original conception of Stakes.  Some of the results rock on toast.  Others flop.  Hard.  I'm not too chickenshit to admit it; some of my attempts at getting neat gameplay suck so bad that we throw up our hands and break out the Munchkin - but the successes make it worth it (and the Munchkin is pretty good, too).

But, then, to me, the theory folks are just a bunch of guys screwing around with their games and their gameplay, looking for fun and maybe a little "new hotness", like many others.  And on those occasions when you find a bit of "new hotness", you're often tempted to look back on other games and dismiss them as "old and busted", even undeservedly.

But I'm rambling.

Quote from: JongWKThe problem is that Edwards states that most gamers are unhappy with their gaming. People who are satisfied with their game are, in his own words, a minority.

I strongly disagree with that statement. Had he said that "some" gamers are unhappy, it'd be a different story.

...And?

Dude, I think Pundit is wrong just as often as not.  It don't stop me enjoying him when I think he's right.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen...And?

Dude, I think Pundit is wrong just as often as not.  It don't stop me enjoying him when I think he's right.

This is just my opinion, and Pundit has nothing to do with this.

I think Edwards' basic premise is flawed, and have little use for his theoreticism.

I don't reject any game without giving it a look first, though. If the rules and setting are good, I might play it. If one of them isn't, I might find a use for the other half. If both of them are bad... tough luck.

Note that I believe that indie and small press games have niche market where they can thrive. Some of these games have the potential to play in the big leagues, many will reach a glass ceiling, and some will simply flop. What else is new under the sun?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBut, then, to me, the theory folks are just a bunch of guys screwing around with their games and their gameplay, looking for fun and maybe a little "new hotness", like many others.  And on those occasions when you find a bit of "new hotness", you're often tempted to look back on other games and dismiss them as "old and busted", even undeservedly.

But I'm rambling.

Not rambling at all. I think this last bit of yours is enlightening.

But my issue is not that games are being 'dismissed'. I mean.. who cares, really. The issue is that these guys are totally insulting.. and then they turn around and say "hey, check out my artistic thing I've been working very hard on, (and I feel kinda sensitive about...)"

I don't think I can even avoid coming into conflict with someone who is both insulting and painfully sensitive.

I find it hard to believe that a person as otherwise intelligent as the Pundit would have a hard time seeing the fallacy in the idea that small press = Forge = Swine = Doom. Because that idea is fucking ridiculous.

Here's how I see the entire scenario. Imagine that you and a ton of other people eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. You and some friends get together and eat your peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Usually, you use grape jelly. Sometimes, you branch out into different flavors, or creamy peanut butter instead of crunchy. The sandwiches are produced in vast factories churning out millions of sandwiches within these basic parameters, and sandwich enthusiasts buy and consume with gusto. Everything is fine.

But one day, out of left field, someone arrives with a ham and cheese sandwich. At first, this guy makes his ham and cheese by hand, occasionally putting up signs about it, but mostly relying on word of mouth. Over time, his sandwich-making apparati get bigger and more productive, and PBJ consumers are also trying HAC sammiches. Some of them enjoy the sammiches and consume both, others choose one or the other. Nevertheless, nearly everyone is enjoying their sandwiches.

Any industry, whether it be music, film, literature, RPGs, or sandwiches, once it gets to a certain size, develops their pseudo-intellectual asshats who obsess over "their" industry and try to tell everyone else what they should like, because it's "more sophisticated". You need only visit your local record store or arthouse theater to see them in action. In the case of this particular analogy, the ham and cheese folks start acting arrogant because PBJ is "for kids". PBJ appeals to the less mature palates of children. Ham and cheese is for adult sandwich enthusiasts! And so the schism starts.

With the advent of the SandwichNet, it becomes cheap and easy for anyone to develop their own sandwich, and distribute them. Some are pretty good, like meatball or roast beef. Some are less good, pig's feet and Binaca. And some are flat-out insane, like tire rubber and ground glass. Some have more fillings, some have less. Some folks even eschew filling altogether, and offer some new type of bread-only sandwich where you just imagine the fillings. For the most part, these independent sandwiches are cheap, sometimes even free. They all have a different take on Sandwich Theory. They appeal to different types of sandwich enthusiasts, who usually pick it up to read or play in addition to whatever sandwiches they're already eating. For the most part, these sandwiches aren't going to bring in fresh blood to the sandwich market, or chase the sandwich-curious away. They actually will have very little impact on the sandwich market (as in, the number of people buying and eating sandwiches), because the people who are buying and eating these sandwiches are already sandwich enthusiasts.

I see all this as a good thing. There's the big PBJ companies, there's the middlin'-size ham and cheese company, and there's the small-kitchen, independent sandwich companies rising and falling in the murk. This situation makes it easy for me, a sandwich enthusiast, to buy and consume whatever the fuck sandwich I feel like, when I feel like it. If I don't like the sandwich, I don't buy it again, or any of their other variants like whole wheat with mustard.  If I like it, I buy more.

To finish out this insane analogy, arguing over who has a better sandwich is retarded. And that's what I'm seeing a lot of, from the Pundit[/i] more than anyone. He runs around, screaming that PBJ is the One True Sandwich, the Way and the Light, while ham and cheese is the Devil's Reuben. And the SandwichNet, small-kitchen guys are "Swine", who're trying to "show off". Essentially, that non-PBJ sandwiches are suited only for the same types of assholes as music elitists, who will drive off the light-eaters and sandwich-curious and destroy the entire industry.

What the fuck kind of industry would RPGs be if it was only D20 with different settings? It'd be the strong-arm communist shithole of entertainment.

RPGs are games. Games are entertainment. Entertainment is a fucking subjective thing. I like getting drunk as entertainment, you might not. You might like watching Buffy as entertainment, I hate that goddamned show. We're not talking about the fucking foundation of civilization, we're talking about nerd games where you and a bunch of guys pretend to be fucking elves or whatever.

The Professor is just as guilty of being a closed-minded, loud-mouthed, pretentious bastard as the "Swine" he fulminates and hurls invective upon.  He claims to know what gamers want. He claims to know what's best for the industry. He's setting himself up as the same goddamned Oracle of Gaming that the Swine claim to be, only he's on the other side of the fence, out in D20 country.

You should know better. For all your claims that the Swine are trying to "take away your game" or somehow seize your ability to play a certain way, you're trying to do the same thing to them.

I want a sandwich now...















...what?

What if I like peanut butter and jelly just fine, but prefer red currant jelly and fresh-ground peanut butter?

-clash

I'm liking the SandwichNet analogy.

I think your'e being unfair to the Pundit though. I don't think Pundit actually believes what you are saying he believes. He's as much (or more) of an omnivore when gaming is concerned.. as anyone.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm liking the SandwichNet analogy.

I think your'e being unfair to the Pundit though. I don't think Pundit actually believes what you are saying he believes. He's as much (or more) of an omnivore when gaming is concerned.. as anyone.

I agree. Pundit tends to exaggerate for maximum impact, but if you read what he writes, he likes quite a few games, some of them I would never expect.

Look at his avatar! Mark Twain! Twain never could resist a good stretching of the literal truth. Read his masterful description of a coyote in his "Roughing It" for example. By exaggeration, Twain highlights what he wants to highlight, while still leaving it perfectly recognisable as a coyote. Political cartoonists do the same.

-clash

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm liking the SandwichNet analogy.

I think your'e being unfair to the Pundit though. I don't think Pundit actually believes what you are saying he believes. He's as much (or more) of an omnivore when gaming is concerned.. as anyone.

That may very well be. What I see is essentially a vendetta, which helps no one, least of all a whole goddamned industry. But I could be misinterpreting.

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat if I like peanut butter and jelly just fine, but prefer red currant jelly and fresh-ground peanut butter?

-clash

I live in Uruguay. I've never tasted peanut butter. *ducks*

What do you feed your children? Mate and bull testicles? :O



-clash

Quote from: JongWKThis is just my opinion, and Pundit has nothing to do with this.

What I was trying to get across was that I can disagree with people on my things, even fundamental things, and still enjoy and learn from what they have to say.  

I try to figure how they're looking at it, and see what they see, and off we go.

Quote from: GeekkakeTo finish out this insane analogy, arguing over who has a better sandwich is retarded.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhat I was trying to get across was that I can disagree with people on my things, even fundamental things, and still enjoy and learn from what they have to say.  

I try to figure how they're looking at it, and see what they see, and off we go.

Ah, that's ok.