Quote from: RPGPunditNever mind that the "effort" they're making is completely wrong minded and likely to end up stifling any other possible efforts to do that kind of thing the right way.

Time will tell about the end of the Forge effort. According to Mearls, Ron Edward's predictions (which I don't know) are coming to pass. Anyone knows which are these predictions?

Quote from: RPGPunditSo Gencon sales, like the internet, will be very disproportionate to reality.

As any other data I've seen around here. For example, in Spain and other parts of Europe, D20 is a popular system, but is not overwhelmingly so. Here in Spain, "D&D/D20 only" players are a very rare thing. Whenever you say that D&D is by far the most successful system around, that must be adjusted to each market. And in that way, indie games that relie more heavily in direct sales as in PDFs, POD and the like have a competitive advantage.

Quote from: RPGPunditIts like if you were to look at RPG.net as your guide, Exalted would certainly have to be the best selling RPG in the world.

Mmmph. I wouldn't go as far as that: there's a lot of D20 love in RPG.net, IME. But, OTOH, Exalted does indeed sell quite well.

Internet will always be a distorted lens, at least while the situation is this: most gamers don't use it, don't know about the discussions and trends over it, and subsequently don't give a flying turd about all this. We are a minority in gamedom.

That's the reason why I find your rants about the Swine conspiracy to destroy the hobby hilarious. Most gamers wouldn't even know about that. It could be argued that most designers (if not all of the important ones) use Internet and thereby are exposed to several influences. But, contrary to you, I think that variety and change are good things, and don't think that my hobby is going to disappear because a group of people are trying new ways of doing things, or developing this or that theory about that.

Quote from: ImperatorTime will tell about the end of the Forge effort. According to Mearls, Ron Edward's predictions (which I don't know) are coming to pass. Anyone knows which are these predictions?

I'm not sure, but possibly the death of the three tier (publisher-distributor-retailer) system.

I don't know if this helps any but:

I have talked to a few small press publishers and they say that any small press/indie game that sells 500 print  copies in one year is doing quite well. Selling another 100 in pdf is "doing well". This might be well for small press/indie publishers, but if WoTC, SJG, or GR posted those numbers it would be considered a big flop. So it is all relative.

Quote from: McrowI have talked to a few small press publishers and they say that any small press/indie game that sells 500 print  copies in one year is doing quite well. Selling another 100 in pdf is "doing well". This might be well for small press/indie publishers, but if WoTC, SJG, or GR posted those numbers it would be considered a big flop. So it is all relative.

Yep. That's why I dismiss the Pundit's rants about indie games being a flop. A flop is when you lose money. Indie designers are earning money, and each year they're earning more. It's not a commercial success as D&D, but it's not a flop.

Quote from: ImperatorYep. That's why I dismiss the Pundit's rants about indie games being a flop. A flop is when you lose money. Indie designers are earning money, and each year they're earning more. It's not a commercial success as D&D, but it's not a flop.

  That's because the Pundit's mind functions like my mother's.  It's a philosophical position I call epistemological voluntarist determinism; If you REALLY want something to be the case then it IS the case.  So if you REALLY hate the forge and the games they produce then there can't possibly be any reason for thinking that they, or indeed any other kind of Indie game, might possibly sell relatively well.

  Indie games are a nice little cottage industry run on an artisan model.  They appeal to a certain percentage of gamers and that percentage grows every year.  The fact that they don't set out to appeal to as wide an audience as possible means that they can explore ideas and settings that bigger companies simply couldn't and their low over-heads mean that they pull some money in too.  If only enough to finance the researching, designing and publishing of the next game.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIndie games are a nice little cottage industry run on an artisan model.  They appeal to a certain percentage of gamers and that percentage grows every year.  The fact that they don't set out to appeal to as wide an audience as possible means that they can explore ideas and settings that bigger companies simply couldn't and their low over-heads mean that they pull some money in too.  If only enough to finance the researching, designing and publishing of the next game.

Yep. AFAIK, no indie designer has ever been worried for making the best selling game ever.

I work as an HR manager in a small company (as freelance, simultaneously with other freelance jobs). We are about 25 people, making layout, translation and edition services for two of the biggest banks in Spain. Are we the biggest business in the sector? Not by any chance. Are we a successful business? You can bet. We've increased our workforce in a full 100%, and our profits have tripled from last year. According to Pundit's rethoric, as we're not the biggest editing business in Spain and we only work in Madrid, we are a flop.

Curious idea, the epistemological voluntarist determinism. I'll chew it a bit.

I dont think it's the games that are the problem. I mean, some of them seem fairly lame,  but that's true in the mainstream hobby as well. Also, I'm all for the convergence of technologies that is making this all possible now.

The problem I have is the hidebound supremacist dogma of thematic gaming, the evangelism (which ranges from merely annoying to totally offensive), and the weird smugness of (some of) the people involved, not all of whom have actually written anything. Unsurprisingly, a couple of the most vocal indie proponents actually seem to be morons, and that never helps. Many of the fans seem painfully status conscious, and that's an interesting button to push. Also, many of these guys seem to be trying to sell stuff constantly.

But the games are fine. I concede the point!

The whole thing about how indie games "don't sell very much" is really just a side point used to refute someone who claims to be very important.
It's just sort of a fun jab whenever someone brings up their sales and starts strutting around hilariously.

You aren't safe here! Your fun will be judged!

:emot-rock:

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe problem I have is the hidebound supremacist dogma of thematic gaming, the evangelism (which ranges from merely annoying to totally offensive), and the weird smugness of (some of) the people involved, not all of whom have actually written anything. Unsurprisingly, a couple of the most vocal indie proponents actually seem to be morons, and that never helps. Many of the fans seem painfully status conscious, and that's an interesting button to push. Also, many of these guys seem to be trying to sell stuff constantly.

I agree with all of this. On the other hand, there are some very cool people frequenting the Forge who are not at all like this, and shouldn't be lumped in with the jerks who you are talking about. I don't go to the Forge myself. Though I have an account there, I've never posted as it's not for me - but just because a person frequents the Forge doesn't make them either asshats or deluded idiots.

BTW - by consensus we are using the inclusive "indie" here, which means all Small Press, yet all your comments were said as if "indie" =The Forge. Just pointing it out.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI agree with all of this. On the other hand, there are some very cool people frequenting the Forge who are not at all like this, and shouldn't be lumped in with the jerks who you are talking about. I don't go to the Forge myself. Though I have an account there, I've never posted as it's not for me - but just because a person frequents the Forge doesn't make them either asshats or deluded idiots.

BTW - by consensus we are using the inclusive "indie" here, which means all Small Press, yet all your comments were said as if "indie" =The Forge. Just pointing it out.

-clash

Yes. And I swear, I'm not discounting the obvious fact that there are plenty of decent and very cool guys doing this and managing to not be jerks.

Quote from: Abyssal MawAlso, many of these guys seem to be trying to sell stuff constantly.

Always, baby.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenAlways, baby.

I swear to gawd, I was totally going to list you as an example. "If  all designers were like Levi Kornelson, we wouldn't have anyone to complain about!"

But I'm mainly talking about the conversation that starts with "So I was thinking of running a superhero game.. set in space" and some guy inevitably shows up and goes "you could totally do that with DITV!!!!"

I mean seriously, people. Calm yourselves.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBut I'm mainly talking about the conversation that starts with "So I was thinking of running a superhero game.. set in space" and some guy inevitably shows up and goes "you could totally do that with DITV!!!!"

You know, you could totally nail a "Ulysses 31"-type game with DITV...

Quote from: Abyssal MawI swear to gawd, I was totally going to list you as an example. "If  all designers were like Levi Kornelson, we wouldn't have anyone to complain about!"

But I'm mainly talking about the conversation that starts with "So I was thinking of running a superhero game.. set in space" and some guy inevitably shows up and goes "you could totally do that with DITV!!!!"

I mean seriously, people. Calm yourselves.

A lot of that comes from having only one game to push...part comes from not knowing when to stop.

Bill

I have no problems with thematic game authors. Even less with the other indie gaming authors.

But the constant : "Go.Play [Flavour of the month acronym e.g. PtA]" as an answer to questions that stem from advwenture gaming makes grown up Settembrini cry.
I just listened to the latest Sons of Kryos Episode, and they seem to have decided to only push thematic games these day.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIndie games are a nice little cottage industry run on an artisan model.  They appeal to a certain percentage of gamers and that percentage grows every year.  The fact that they don't set out to appeal to as wide an audience as possible means that they can explore ideas and settings that bigger companies simply couldn't and their low over-heads mean that they pull some money in too.  If only enough to finance the researching, designing and publishing of the next game.

You're both UTTERLY missing the point.

What you're arguing would be fine and good if Ron Edwards had said "Here's GNS, its a neat little theory about how to make indie games that sell 500 copies!". Had that been what he'd said, I would say his mission statement was more than fulfilled.

However, what Ron Edwards said was "Here's GNS; it is the SOLUTION to the "PROBLEM" with all RPGs today, and will create objectively BETTER RPGs that will be more playable and more popular than what existed before".

And by that standard, selling 500 copies as a definition of a "successful" GNS game is in fact a miserable pathetic failure.

RPGPundit