€4 at paizo. Never forget paizo.

Quote from: lukeI would like to note that in the post that follows, I am NOT bashing DnD or Wizards. I LIKE DnD and Wizards. I'm simply pointing out the buy-in costs for the game.

I know, but your'e trying to distort it deliberately by going to the website instead of a retailer. Try looking at prices at Amazon, where most people buy books.

Players Handbook= $19.77, with 'used & new' going from $14.

Once again- this is all you really need to play unless you are the GM.

Here's the box where you get all three at once:
 
Dungeons & Dragons Core Rulebook Gift Set ~$60


Whether Sorcerer or Artesia is a complete game is a moot point. The PHB + a free SRD is also a complete game.

I'm willing to accept there are a lot of reasons people might want to play Indie games, but economics ain't one of those.

As an aside, you can get the 3.0 PHB for $3.50 on Amazon. The 3.0 DMG for $4.99, and the 3.0 MM  for  $3.49.

Quote from: JamesVWhile D&D is the epitome of traditional gaming, there is more to this hobby than that, and I think that ensures they will be far from doomed. They may not drive around in Bentleys with platinum grills in their mouth, but maybe there will be a few indie publishers some money in their pockets and a group of fans who have fun with their games. Heck I'm fine with D&D, but my hobby experiences would have been poorer by far if it was the only game I played or ran.

I'm not disputing this, I'm making a specific point.

And it's obvious that there are indie publishers that manage to find an audience. Palladium did. Palladium found two hits: TMNT and Rifts. They figured out a way to be fun.

However, I personally have my doubts that indie audience will ever grow that much because what they are doing (which forthe most part aren't much more than psychodrama exercises-- neither story, nor game), at their core, just aren't that fun.

Regarding thematic indie games, I can see (and have seen) groups spending X amount on HERO, AD&D, Palladium Fantasy, Champions, Rolemaster, Shadowrun, RuneQuest, CoC, whatever, and playing that and pretty much just that for a good decade or more.  I can't see many folks playing just My Life With Master or Dogs In The Vineyard for a decade.  I think by their thematic, focused nature, that just isn't what they're meant to be.

Now there are plenty of indie games I could see being played by a group over a long period of time:  Burning Wheel, JAGS, EABA, The Riddle of Steel, etc.  But regarding a certain portion of those thematic indie games, I would be rather surprised if they were able to keep that long-term appeal.  Which means folks would end up buying other games for their fix anyways.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstNow there are plenty of indie games I could see being played by a group over a long period of time:  Burning Wheel, JAGS, EABA, The Riddle of Steel, etc.  But regarding a certain portion of those thematic indie games, I would be rather surprised if they were able to keep that long-term appeal.  Which means folks would end up buying other games for their fix anyways.

So?  When you aren't relying on a significant number of folks jumping on your serial train *whoot whoot* then if they go play something else sometimes that just isn't an issue.

EDIT In fact if you happen to have written and are selling two different games it is a financial benefit that the owners of one be interested in playing something else sometimes. Because if they already liked the first game they bought from you that significantly ups the odds that they'll at least give your other product an honest look.  Do you really think Monopoly relies heavily on their customers playing it to the exclusion of all other board games?

Quote from: blakkieSo?  When you aren't relying on a significant number of folks jumping on your serial train *whoot whoot* then if they go play something else sometimes that just isn't an issue.

EDIT In fact if you happen to have written and are selling two different games it is a financial benefit that the owners of one be interested in playing something else sometimes. Because if they already liked the first game they bought from you that significantly ups the odds that they'll at least give your other product an honest look.  Do you really think Monopoly relies heavily on their customers playing it to the exclusion of all other board games?

True.  I'm just pointing out one of the limitations some of the indie games might run into.  I'm just saying that indie gaming isn't definitively this low-cost one-and-done revolution.  Yeah, they've got some cheap games--hell, I think Burning Wheel for $25 is one of the best values out there--but so does Palladium, I.C.E., and a whole plethora of others that folks could likely play exclusively for the rest of their gaming lives.

But I sort of derailed things here a bit on some non-sequitur thoughts.  Sorry about that.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHowever, I personally have my doubts that indie audience will ever grow that much because what they are doing (which forthe most part aren't much more than psychodrama exercises-- neither story, nor game), at their core, just aren't that fun.

Nothing like the smell of raw, naked, uninformed condescension in the morning. Smells like... victory.

-L

Quote from: Zachary The FirstNow there are plenty of indie games I could see being played by a group over a long period of time:  Burning Wheel, JAGS, EABA, The Riddle of Steel, etc.  But regarding a certain portion of those thematic indie games, I would be rather surprised if they were able to keep that long-term appeal.  Which means folks would end up buying other games for their fix anyways.

For sure. But remember that many of us are now advancing in years and life has changed. I have absolutely no intention of ever again getting involved in a long-term game; 'long-term' for me meaning anything over a few months or a dozen sessions.

So I can buy, say, My Life with Master for about US$24 (including shipping). Bang, I have a playable game with several sessions in it, and a fair bit of replay value. Compare to D&D again – even at the optimistic price I'm up for US$60 or so (not including shipping). Then I must prep the game, which in MLwM is not so onerous.

Furthermore, apart from the dedicated gamers I know, most of the people in my life would react more favourably to MLwM than D&D. You'll have to take my word for that, but it's true.

Quote from: droogFurthermore, apart from the dedicated gamers I know, most of the people in my life would react more favourably to MLwM than D&D. You'll have to take my word for that, but it's true.

I believe you, and I'm sure that were we to post this several other places, we would undoubtedly find people who would react more favourably to MLwM than D&D or Shadowrun or whatever.  And I know what you mean about having less time as we get older--my daughter sees to that quite nicely.  Really, I was just pointing out a style of play that I think some thematic offerings miss out on.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI know, but your'e trying to distort it deliberately by going to the website instead of a retailer. Try looking at prices at Amazon, where most people buy books.

I know, I know. I distort the truth by pointing out quoted prices on company branded websites and by making wild assertions that most gamers buy their games at gaming stores. CRAZY! CRAZY!

Just like your own wild and unfounded assertions that most people buy books on Amazon. Look, I'm Gleichman! Get me an audit on that!

But I  particularly like how you think that because "all the player needs is the PHB" the $60 the GM must spend magically just doesn't count toward the total buy-in cost for the game. It's $90 whether one person buys it or whether five people do.

I'm off to rock out. Catch you cats on the flip side.
-L

edited for preposition. Also, I love drift (when it's not my website).

Quote from: Zachary The FirstReally, I was just pointing out a style of play that I think some thematic offerings miss out on.

It's part of the puzzle, isn't it? That very thing they miss could be a selling point – I know it is for me.

Quote from: lukeNothing like the smell of raw, naked, uninformed condescension in the morning. Smells like... victory.

-L

Well, believe me, It's informed condescension. You were the one searching out higher prices instead of the what actual retailers charge. I was just making a point that your facts were wrong, and I provided links to the correct prices.

All I'm saying is that you aren't going to win this argument based on the notion that "everyone has to pay $100 to play D&D". That shit may fly elsewhere, but not here. It's simply not fucking true.

And heck, I'm willing to accept that there might even be some people more willing to play psychodrama exercises than actual games out there. I mean, your'e already selling 3% as much as the Green Ronin's initial print run of Mutants and Masterminds, right?

Quote from: Zachary The FirstTrue.  I'm just pointing out one of the limitations some of the indie games might run into.

The problem is with calling it a limitation. Avoiding the overhead of constantly investing in the risky business of extending the product line to sell more and more items to less and less people is a "limitation"?

Not that BW is particularly "thematic", as opposed to "broad setting scope" (I've finally gotten past Setti's red herring about "adventure gaming"...but then I haven't had the time to read all the posts here).  But the idea that you do play other things is assumed in the marketing, because if you don't play anything else it doesn't matter.

Quote from: blakkieThe problem is with calling it a limitation. Avoiding not requiring the overhead of constantly investing large amounts of overhead in the risky business of extending the line selling more and more items to less and less people?

P.S. Not that BW is particularly "thematic", as opposed to "broad setting scope" (I was confused by that load of road apples about "adventure gaming", trying to figure WTF Setti was talking about).

I think by Settimbrini's definition, Burning Wheel would count as an Adventure game, perfectly suited for campaigns, rather than a thematic one, where you just ponder your morality or whatever.

Quote from: blakkieThe problem is with calling it a limitation. Avoiding the overhead of constantly investing in the risky business of extending the product line to sell more and more items to less and less people is a "limitation"?

Not that BW is particularly "thematic", as opposed to "broad setting scope" (I've finally gotten past Setti's red herring about "adventure gaming"...but then I haven't had the time to read all the posts here).  But the idea that you do play other things is assumed in the marketing, because if you don't play anything else it doesn't matter.

I'm sorry, we seem to be having a disconnect.  I refer to limitation in playstyle some of these games offer as a turn-off to some folks.  Inability to sustain long-term play would be a limitation to some.  Obviously, it's in the "pro" column for others.