Quote from: Abyssal MawOne thing I notice is that a lot of these creator owned things borrow systems back and forth from one another and list each other in the credits as well. SO I guess I have trouble even with the idea of "creator owned" in some cases.

I can't say I have seen systems being barrowed.

I have seen that Forge publishers tend to help each otehr out with editing and that sort of thing. But barrowing systems, that I haven't seen.

Quote from: flyingmiceArrrgh! The sister thread over on RPGNet is so full of snark you can walk on it. If it wasn't for baileywolf - and keeping in touch with my customers - I think I'd be happier leaving that place.

-mice

I can't be very snark sensitive then, 'cos i haven't seen anything to suggest that yet.

Then again, that's the potential problem with cross board posting...

Quote from: gleichmanI think the original assumption is basically in error, i.e. growth in the indie market is not significant.

Are you saying the indie market has not grown or that relative to the overall hobby the growth is insignificant?

QuoteYou have a market in decline due to over-publication. In such an event you'll see all sort of short term blips on the radar that will quickly fade from notice as various groups attempt to side-step the cause of the decline.

What is the cause of the decline?

Quote from: jrientsAre you saying the indie market has not grown or that relative to the overall hobby the growth is insignificant?

The latter.

Quote from: jrientsWhat is the cause of the decline?

Over Publication, basically because of D20. Everyone ran to the feeding trough and that is never stable (sort like the Dot-Com bubble in cause-effect although one could nit-pick the differences). We're in the contraction part of the cycle now.

Quote from: McrowI can't say I have seen systems being barrowed.

I have seen that Forge publishers tend to help each otehr out with editing and that sort of thing. But barrowing systems, that I haven't seen.

You should check a bit closer. Theyre pretty up front about it.

Quote from: jhkimHowever, while White Wolf was certainly small-press when Vampire came out, I suspect that they were not indie.  There were over 20 people in the credits, and I doubt that authors Mark, Graeme, Tom, Lisa, and Stewart had control over production.  It also had marketing.  There were glossy leaflets promoting the game sent out advertising the game before its release.

Hmm...

The Cog Wars will have five listed authors, one listed artist, and two listed editors.  Of those eight people, one of the writers (myself) and the artist retain the copyright and will control production.

I'd call it an Indie production, myself.  Would you?

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou should check a bit closer. Theyre pretty up front about it.

do you have examples? Maybe your talking about games I haven't seen yet.

Quote from: Mcrowdo you have examples? Maybe your talking about games I haven't seen yet.

Trust from the Mountain Witch also appears in Cold City (not sure who wrote Cold City, though), and appeared somewhere else before either of those.

The whole dice mechanism from Vincent Baker's Dogs is also in C.R.Nixon's The Princes Kingdom.

With a bit of research, this list can be continued...

Quote from: Levi KornelsenTrust from the Mountain Witch also appears in Cold City (not sure who wrote Cold City, though), and appeared somewhere else before either of those.

The whole dice mechanism from Vincent Baker's Dogs is also in C.R.Nixon's The Princes Kingdom.

With a bit of research, this list can be continued...

Ok,then. I had just no seen it yet.

I have Dogs, but no The Princes Kingdom.

single game mechanics (or the basic ideas of them anyway) are used by many indie and non-indie games. So, no suprise there.

I have just not seen Forge publishers swap whole systems. Of course I only own about 3-4 forge games.

Quote from: Mcrowdo you have examples? Maybe your talking about games I haven't seen yet.

The Princes Kingdom, the Dictionary of Mu, etc.

Seriously, you didn't know this?

Quote from: jhkim"Indie" generally means "creator-owned".  This is distinct from small press.  Small press will often have someone publishing work authored by someone else -- so the person who wrote the words doesn't necessarily control how the final product turns out.  

So, I'm open to D&D and Palladium being indie when they first came out.  However, while White Wolf was certainly small-press when Vampire came out, I suspect that they were not indie.  There were over 20 people in the credits, and I doubt that authors Mark, Graeme, Tom, Lisa, and Stewart had control over production.  It also had marketing.  There were glossy leaflets promoting the game sent out advertising the game before its release.

WTF?

Is this part of that whole convoluted reasoning that you guys were all made to accept by the Leader Ron so that his personal favourite game, Heroquest, would be considered "indie" even though no sane person would say it is?

RPGPundit

In any case, I'm with Gleichman. There's no real significant evidence that Indie games are growing in any significant way.

If you sold 10 copies of Gay Cowboys Eating Pudding last year, and this year you sell 20, you can claim that you've had a 100% increase in sales and that business is "booming". But in the larger scale, you're still a pissant.

What I can see as growing is the influence of the whole "indie games"  movement on the internet.  This is mostly due to ultra-aggresive prosletyzing on the part of the fanatics of the Cult of Ron.  Some of this same prosletyzing in the real world might lead some poor game store owner to be badgered into ordering copies of Dogs In The Vinyard or My Life With Master to sell alongside products that, you know, normal people actually want to buy.  Doing this on a significant scale will usually lead to the closure of said gaming store shortly thereafter.

RPGPundit

QuoteWhat I can see as growing is the influence of the whole "indie games"  movement on the internet.

Yepp. But Internet is an important medium.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe Princes Kingdom, the Dictionary of Mu, etc.

Seriously, you didn't know this?

Nope, i don't have a large collection of Forge games.

Lets see I have

CoS
DiV
Sorcerer

Others that I'm no sure are Forge:
Carry
Cold City
BW/BE

Quote from: RPGPunditIn any case, I'm with Gleichman. There's no real significant evidence that Indie games are growing in any significant way.

If you sold 10 copies of Gay Cowboys Eating Pudding last year, and this year you sell 20, you can claim that you've had a 100% increase in sales and that business is "booming". But in the larger scale, you're still a pissant.

What I can see as growing is the influence of the whole "indie games"  movement on the internet.  This is mostly due to ultra-aggresive prosletyzing on the part of the fanatics of the Cult of Ron.  Some of this same prosletyzing in the real world might lead some poor game store owner to be badgered into ordering copies of Dogs In The Vinyard or My Life With Master to sell alongside products that, you know, normal people actually want to buy.  Doing this on a significant scale will usually lead to the closure of said gaming store shortly thereafter.

RPGPundit

Not all "Indie" publishers - by Levi's definition - are Forge influenced, Pundit. Games by PiG, Hinterwelt, or Flying Mice, for example, are generally traditional. What is unorthodox is the independence from the three tier distribution system.

-mice